The Confederate Flag - from a descendant of the creator

Politics and religion
141

When I was young and lived in various states in the South (Air Force family, moved a lot) I remember the confederate flag, among younger people, being far more a sign of pride of living in the South and a pushback to the negative labels most of the media put on the south. Most times you’d see someone in a movie or TV show with a southern accent, they were portrayed as an ignorant hick. Hell, I remember moving from undergrad school in Hattiesburg, MS to grad school in Akron, Ohio and how most people responded to my accent. Even today, there is a distinct looking down the nose for a lot of the country of anyone from the South. So, that rebel flag for a lot of younger people represented area pride and pushback on that prejudice. I didn’t see much difference in the rebel flag use (again, among a lot of younger people) than I did in people in Texas with their Texas flag stickers and Don’t Mess with Texas signs, etc.

I think the flag should not be flown in state capitals, etc. Don’t mistake what I’m saying. But I disagree with those who say the vast majority of rebel flag bumper stickers,etc. in the south are intentional signs of bigotry or a longing to return to the days of slavery, etc.

For sure, the American flag has flown over some really bad stuff also. One could argue that it represents the genocide of the native American people (though an interesting fact for another thread, a vast majority of native Americans had been wiped out by a plague by the time the Europeans came over; it could have been a VERY interesting alternate history otherwise.) Also what was done under the American flag to the Philippine people. Massive murder and atrocities, sanctioned, water boarding and other torture, etc.

I think, however, the difference is this: The US flag represents a nation who has done a lot of great things, in spite of some really dark stains on it. The Confederate Flag was short lived and only existed as the flag of a “country” fighting to keep slavery. Yeah, in spite of What This Cruel War Was About (I think that’s the name, I have it and read it, I’m a history fanatic) and other books and articles it wasn’t 100% that simple. And had the South said, OK, we’ll give up slavery but we still want to be a separate country, I’m not at all convinced the war would have ended. But there is no history of the Confederate flag outside of that time period.

I rambled a lot there, but I will reiterate, it is a mistake to assume the vast majority of people in the south who have a rebel flag sticker or whatever do it as a sign of their support for racism/slavery.

142

It’s not like slavery was unique to the antebellum century US. Given the ubiquity of slavery throughout history and around the globe, chances are some ancestor of yours somewhere was a slaveholder (and chances are some ancestor was a slave, too.)

143

The obvious observation is that our country was founded by slavers.

144

I wouldn’t say his case is “great”.

145

As an outsider to the debate, I’d say you’ve found the main issue. Those people in the tour were not trying to whitewash slavery out of guilt from the crimes of their ancestors necessarily, but most likely due to national pride for their country. While ancestors die and their descendants are different people, nations can be perceived as being the same than when it was founded (I don’t agree with this, but this is what national narratives tend to do. Plus in the case of the USAR, the fact that the original constitution remains in force brings strength to this perception). Thus, for some people, admitting a former horror comitted by your country in the past is somewhat akin to critizing your country in the present.

While stuff from 100 years ago is more of a basket case (get over it already!) I have seen this particular kind of nationalism many, many times, justifying things from the colonization of America to the fascist coup, and subsequent civil war and dictatorship (and these last two being so recent that it is actually pretty common).

146

I don’t think he’s suggesting that a lot of people care about it but rather that a lot of people SHOULD care about it. Likely it will have a greater effect on their lives. And I would certainly agree with that.

147

Acknowledging that slavery is real isn’t about guilt, it’s about understanding how recent it is (including institutional discrimination throughout the 90s) and thus needing to reconcile the fact that maybe Black people aren’t “lazy” or whatever other racist stereotypes they hold but rather that people alive today are still direct victims of those policies.

If you instead justify to yourself that slavery might not have been “that bad” it’s easier to convince yourself that they’re merely victims of their own behavior rather than victims of slavery and discrimination.

148

The people who are mad about the Confed Flag, are also largely the same folks mad about TTP. They’re not distracted.

As for Southern accent- I think the type of accent determines how much looking down you get. Folks who sounded like they’re from the Deep South got it a lot worse than I did, with my more Mid-Atlantic accent. Maybe it passes for Virginia or DC?

149

Still seems to be a sensible topic either way. I’m still utterly baffled by the story surrounding Finding Your Roots. Why would Affleck really bother? It’s not like anyone would blame him or give him or his direct family a hard time about some ancestor who owned slaves, right? It’s not like he would have to justify that.

150

I think you can give the Black community a little bit of agency, no?

I suppose we all need an other, and in their mind we are the uncultured hicks that help to define their educated modernity.

That’s it, really. They believe that a person could be both an honorable soldier worthy of memory, and a Confederate. Dead confederates get little press these days, and none of it good - so it stands to reason that they would focus on the positive elements of their legacies.

151

It was interesting, but a nation that can produce, “You have snow in Europe?” also has individuals ignorant of history? Yeah not really shocking.

I’ve had many arguments with Holocaust deniers too, and that’s even more recent.

152

I wouldn’t call it ignorance if that’s what you were actually taught in schools, like I was in the 90s. The Lost Causer stuff was taught here.

153

Yeah, there are a few things in play here. There are lots of Southern accents, and even someone who isn’t attuned to the differences enough to identify the region will react differently to them. The “Southern Belle” accent from Savannah or Atlanta’s upper-crust neighborhoods sound fairly “cultured” to most people’s ears, and a Nashville accent can sound very “Southern” without crossing the line into “Hick” territory, as opposed to someone hailing from Alabama or Mississippi’s more rural areas.

My personal theory is that the speed of speaking has a LOT to do with it. Many of the accents that we think of as “Back Woods Southern” have really, really slow cadences compared to how fast most Americans in the Mid-Atlantic, Northeast, or even Midwest talk. People speaking slooooowly in a country accent kind of gives you that double-whammy impression of stupidity.

It goes without saying that these impressions are usually FALSE. My roommate in college came from from a back-woods town in rural Virginia, and I constantly had to keep myself from finishing his sentences. He just took forever to finish a thought, with drawn-out syllables, pauses between phrases, and a generally unhurried diction. It drove me crazy and I spent the first few weeks wondering how the hell he ever got into Tech’s engineering program. Of course the answer was that he was whip-smart. I’d also note that by the time we graduated (him with better grades than me), his speech-patterns had shifted radically and he told me once that folks in his home town were constantly telling him to slow down and stop gibbering when he came home for breaks.

154

I knew a guy in College who ended up being a roomate in my sophmore and junior years. He was from Northern Massachusetts.
When I first met him freshman year, I literally thought he was mentally disabled due to his accent. I am absolutely not joking.

155

Ugh.

What’s the “Lost Causer stuff”? I presume it’s an absurdly whitewashed version of the Civil War and its antecedents, but then I am an ignorant Yank.

156

It was a movement started right after the war that framed the Confederate cause as a State’s rights issue, emphasizing the nobility of the South.

157

Okay, yep, just as gross as I’d imagined. Thanks, -Timex- Telefrog.

e: wheeeeeeeee reading is FUNdamental!

158

Yay! I’m Timex!

159

Deeeeeeeeerpty herpty durr!

160

lol, I don’t even know what is happening.

Did I offend someone by saying I thought my roomate was mentally challenged due to his accent?