The Countdown is over! Dragon Age: Origins released (Spoiler Free Discussion)

[hong]

But headline computer RPGs are now multi-million dollar projects crafted over years by professionals. They can afford to present original ideas in a crafted, interesting way. So many people are asking why they continue to rehash the same old genre cliches.

Because many other people want those same old genre cliches.

[hong]

Here are the four main questlines:

1. The mage tower has been overrun by troublemakers. Are you a bad enough dude to kill all the troublemakers until you make the final moral choice at the end?
2. The Elves are having trouble. Are you a bad enough dude to kill all the troublemakers and wander through a generic elven ruin until you make the final moral choice at the end?
3. The village is under attack. Are you a bad enough dude to repel the attackers and then find the macguffin to make things right by playing Indiana Jones III until you make the final moral choice at the end?
4. The dwarves are having trouble. Are you a bad enough dude to do a couple of fed-ex quests and then wander around aimlessly to find the dwarven macguffin until you make the final moral choice at the end?

In Baldur’s Gate 2 the world had a lot more interesting locations: The Planar Sphere, the Illusionist tent, the Mage Asylum and the Test of Sanity, the Underdark with the soulcage and drow politics, the bustling city of Baldur’s Gate itself, the detective quest to find the murderer in the bridge district etc.

I think you’re making BG2 out to be more varied than it really was, possibly because of the 10-year timespan that’s passed. Of the locations you mention, all of them are just backdrops. They have different artwork and textures, but beyond that, they’re really all varieties of dungeon. They consist of rooms connected with passages, and there are monsters inside that you have to kill. There’s not much interaction with the scenery, beyond looting random containers or setting off traps.

In this respect, DA is no different. Yes, the different locations vary mostly in artwork and textures, but this is basically how every Bio game has worked, from BG onward.

ME is still more my style of game than DA, but the DA quests have been pretty memorable.

[hong]

You seem to be limiting your definition of Elves to the High Elf variety. Insular, nomadic hunters attempting to preserve a lost glory age = Wood Elves in basically every classic fantasy setting (including Tolkien). Cf. Warhammer for the most popular model of today.

Where are the ghetto-dwelling city elves recently liberated by a Christ-figure in Tolkien and Warhammer?

[Alistair]

Since this is the nonspoiler thread, I hope these descriptions are sufficiently vague to be spoiler-free.

No, not really. Why not just leave out the descriptions? I.e. the spoilers?

[Dan_Theman]

Where are the ghetto-dwelling city elves recently liberated by a Christ-figure in Tolkien …

You mean the once and future king? ;)

[Brian_Rucker]

Aragorn isn’t king of the elves.

[Dan_Theman]

Aragorn isn’t king of the elves.

No, but he played a pretty huge role in saving them.

PS - Jesus isn’t my king, either.

[Bahimiron]

No, but he played a pretty huge role in saving them.

From living in ghettos.

Shit, I need to reread my Tolkien.

[Brian_Rucker]

Actually, the elves saved Aragorn. Most of them were heading West but a few stuck around to help Man out. That’s in fact the main theme with Tolkien’s elves. Their time is over, they’re cutting out. Blowing this popsicle stand. That theme is entirely absent from Dragon Age. They may be nomads, gypsies even, but they’re not building ships and sailing off to heaven en masse.

[merryprankster]

From living in ghettos.

Shit, I need to reread my Tolkien.

Yeah dude, Lothlorien was a fucking dump.

[Dan_Theman]

From living in ghettos.

Shit, I need to reread my Tolkien.

LOL - maybe Moses is a better analogy? Look, if you guys don’t want to see the parallel, that’s fine but I didn’t bring it up in the first place - I’m just saying it’s there. Perhaps that’s all a little too mushy, so let’s say it’s the role of a leader: maybe calling the character a new version of the Pied Piper and the Elves the rats would put a better taste in our mouths?

EDIT - missed this on the bottom of the last page:

Actually, the elves saved Aragorn. Most of them were heading West but a few stuck around to help Man out. That’s in fact the main theme with Tolkien’s elves. Their time is over, they’re cutting out. Blowing this popsicle stand. That theme is entirely absent from Dragon Age. They may be nomads, gypsies even, but they’re not building ships and sailing off to heaven en masse.

Interesting point, but I’m not sure I entirely agree - yes, they were heading to the West, but was that with the understanding that they’d be able to avoid the Orcs? I always assumed that Sauron was going to eventually capture the world, and that the races banded together (under one guy’s leadership and also by disposing of a particular artifact) to make their stand before it was too late. Maybe that assumption was only based upon my too many games of Civ.

[Bahimiron]

yes, they were heading to the West, but was that with the understanding that they’d be able to avoid the Orcs? I always assumed that Sauron was going to eventually capture the world, and that the races banded together (under one guy’s leadership and also by disposing of a particular artifact) to make their stand before it was too late. Maybe that assumption was only based upon my too many games of Civ.

Nevermind. I just realized that I know my Tolkien pretty okay. You need to reread yours, though.

[Dan_Theman]

Nevermind. I just realized that I know my Tolkien pretty okay. You need to reread yours, though.

Always a distinct possibility. I last read those books when I was a teen (a few decades ago). I watched the movies quite a bit, but a movie isn’t a book.

[Quitch]

I think you’re making BG2 out to be more varied than it really was, possibly because of the 10-year timespan that’s passed. Of the locations you mention, all of them are just backdrops. They have different artwork and textures, but beyond that, they’re really all varieties of dungeon. They consist of rooms connected with passages, and there are monsters inside that you have to kill. There’s not much interaction with the scenery, beyond looting random containers or setting off traps.

In hindsight yes, but at the time you get the feeling that you’re truly somewhere new. And BG2 had a greater variety of enemies so you’d often encounter something unique to the location.

We’re still suffering from the move to 3D where you can produce more for less, but we lose the variety. In terms of game mechanics, as you mention, there’s not much changed. However, the locations did make the quests more memorable and BG2 (like PST) was focused around a central location which made the world feel more alive than Dragon Age which uses a number of smaller locations as quest hubs.

In the end I think Dragon Age has an interesting world, one it spectacularly failed to put across in the game. I wonder if the quest designers flicked through the world overview and then the writers were told not to burden their eyes with the codex entries.

[Stridergg]

Interesting point, but I’m not sure I entirely agree - yes, they were heading to the West, but was that with the understanding that they’d be able to avoid the Orcs? I always assumed that Sauron was going to eventually capture the world, and that the races banded together (under one guy’s leadership and also by disposing of a particular artifact) to make their stand before it was too late. Maybe that assumption was only based upon my too many games of Civ.

Elves were leaving because magic was supposedly gone from the world and their time has passed. Sauron’s return has nothing to do with it, it’s not like they are running from him, he’s been beaten before.

[edit] not that it has anything to do with DAO though :)

[Stridergg]

My main complaint is not that the world is bland/uninspired, but that the main quests are so bland/boring.
Since this is the nonspoiler thread, I hope these descriptions are sufficiently vague to be spoiler-free.

Here are the four main questlines:

1. The mage tower has been overrun by troublemakers. Are you a bad enough dude to kill all the troublemakers until you make the final moral choice at the end?
2. The Elves are having trouble. Are you a bad enough dude to kill all the troublemakers and wander through a generic elven ruin until you make the final moral choice at the end?
3. The village is under attack. Are you a bad enough dude to repel the attackers and then find the macguffin to make things right by playing Indiana Jones III until you make the final moral choice at the end?
4. The dwarves are having trouble. Are you a bad enough dude to do a couple of fed-ex quests and then wander around aimlessly to find the dwarven macguffin until you make the final moral choice at the end?

If you are willing to oversimplify enough to completely lose everything the story is about, you can do it to any story. “A bad enough dude kills an old lady to make his moral statement” - that’s “Crime and Punishment” by Dostoevskij for you. Judging by this descriptions he seems to be a completely uninspired author, dunno what others find in him. :)

[Dan_Theman]

Elves were leaving because magic was supposedly gone from the world and their time has passed. Sauron’s return has nothing to do with it, it’s not like they are running from him, he’s been beaten before.

[edit] not that it has anything to do with DAO though :)

LOL - thank you for the clarification and response. I think that I’m not very good at using the blurb format to express things. For instance, I knew why they were leaving. However, I didn’t understand their level of confidence in being able to beat him on their own. Anyway, I appreciate being wrong oftentimes more than being right as it leads to a smarter version of me. I’m quite lucky that my life has provided me with ample opportunites of that nature.

Not that it has anything to do with DAO, either :)

[strategy]

Huh. Somewhere along the way, Dragon Age got easy.

Playing on normal, I’d not had to try any fight more than a couple of times, but things could still go south easily enough if I wasn’t careful. And yet, I’ve hit my second area (the Brecilian forest) and I’m kicking ass and taking names now - it’s not the “levelled to when you entered” effect, because I’m not coming back to something I’d quit halfway through. This is fresh. But even the monsters that had previously given me my only several attempt battle are now folding quietly under my onslaught. I wonder what’s changed.

You probably hit the third tier of spell/skill levels. Once you hit a particular combination of skills for each of the warrior, rogue and mage, you do suddenly advance to a completely different level of damage-dealing power and resistance. Usually happens somewhere around levels 13-16.

[strategy]

Well, not in the Lord of the Rings unless I’m seriously missing something,

They’re called the Silvan elves in Middle Earth mythos; i.e., those that chose to stay when the rest of the Elves went west back in the First Age. IIRC, there are plenty of examples of paranoid Wood Elves in the Silmarrilion (which no doubt influenced Peter Jacksons portrayal of Galadriel’s people in the films. Galadriel’s folk are also Silvan).

D&D also has both Wood Elves, Wild Elves and other variants (sometimes synonymous, sometimes not… all collectively referred to as Sylvan elves). Actually the mythos of Elves in Forgotten Realms also has them originating from a kingdom that was destroyed in wars, which forced them to live as fugitives, slaves, and vagabonds for a time (although granted - no alienages).

But then again… is there any variant of monster in any setting that does NOT also appear somewhere in the D&D universe? Heh.

[rei]

Heh, Dragonlance elves are split down the same lines.