He is openly authoritarian. He doesn’t even give lip service to the principles of a democratic republic. He has never once given any indication, in fact, that democracy means a thing to him.
In many ways that may not matter that much, but I think it’s some kind of a line to cross. He’s sure goosed my Democracy Spidey Sense like nobody else.
ShivaX
5516
I’d agree with that.
But that doesn’t mean Trump isn’t a departure from the norm. He’s the end result of the path they took, but the path isn’t Trumps all the way. Trump is the cliff the path was leading to that everyone plummeted off of.
Semantics. It’s the same path we’ve seen from the conservative movement for 20+ years. Just because the downward slide gets steep at the end doesn’t mean it’s not part of the same path.
Well they voted for Trump last month. So I take them at their word that they like what they see.
I dont think its a leap to say everyone who voted Republican in 2018 should now be judged as supporting Trump and his actions.
I mean the whole election was essentially a referendum on him.
edit: I maybe misunderstanding your argument here.
edit2 : I did. I think a lot of people could be forgiven for believing in Republicans during the 90’s. It seemed relatively honest and about regulation, taxes & the role of the market. It was only later that it became transparently obvious just how little those things mattered to the Party.
Nesrie
5519
Yep. Anyone who wants to use Trump as their get of jail free card… no go. They don’t get to use Trump as some sort of starting point, no matter how they word salad that excuse. Trump is not the reason for the way things are. He is the result of it.
Timex
5520
Trump is damn near all bad. I cannot think of a single thing I find praiseworthy of him, and that makes him somewhat unique.
The idea that he is no different from previous Republicans is absurd… Compare his position on immigrants to that of Reagan, and how he spoke of them in his farewell speech. Or his position on trade. Or his complete and total disregard for the law. Or even just his basic views of what America is about. Compare how Reagan spoke of Nazis and the KKK, compared to how Trump dealt with them. Compare Buckley’s reelection if the Birchers, compared to how the modern GOP has embraced then.
Criticism of Republicans from the past is fine. I am willing to admit that I refused to see what they were becoming over time… But at the same time, a transition did in fact take place.
When you look at the way that men like Reagan and Bush approached authoritarian powers, the difference is stark compared to how Trump deals with them.
And again, we ALL know that something is different now. Anyone saying otherwise is lying. You may have hated Reagan or Bush, but unless you were way out there on the fringe, you didn’t think they were going to destroy the foundation of our country. You didn’t think they would sell us out to the Russians. You didn’t think they were compromised by foreign powers.
Maybe part of it is that it’s been two years now where the crazy has been turned up to 11, but Jesus Christ people, it didn’t used to be like this. Stuff wasn’t like this under any previous Republican president.
You can take the absolute worst, of every Republican ever, and you put it together, and make it worse, and that’s Trump. And the modern GOP, is all about Trump.
Timex
5521
They totally should. The current GOP is terrible. It needs to be destroyed.
But it wasn’t always like this.
magnet
5522
Stalin and Hitler were both evil. That doesn’t mean they shared the same ideology. Likewise Trump and his GOP predecessors.
Until recently Palin did not represent most Republicans. McCain was the presidential candidate after all, not her. After they lost, McCain was reelected to the Senate. Palin never held public office again.
Then there was Romney. He said that Russia was a major U.S. geopolitical foe. Trump treats Russia as an ally. So there’s one difference.
HW opposed aggression by non-Americans, and defended American aggression
Trump defends all aggression.
So there’s another difference.
HW signed NAFTA. Trump hates NAFTA and threatened to walk out. So there’s yet another.
HW signed an immigration bill sponsored by Ted Kennedy, stating “I am also pleased to note that this Act facilitates immigration not just in numerical terms, but also in terms of basic entry rights of those beyond our borders.” Trump… well you know.
I agree with that. Thanks for the clarification. A rational , decent person in the past could have voted Republican.
Nesrie
5524
So if you went back in time, you think there is zero things that the GOP party not only could but should do to avoid the inevitable problem of birthing Trump. You don’t think there is anything in the past that led to this moment? I think there is a lot they could have done, and they have a list of problematic leaders that led to this moment. And those moments, those policies and those leaders are pretty obvious if you are not trying to give excuses to the people who ignored them.
vyshka
5525
Trump is different, but the idea everything was okay with the Republican party until his arrival is equally absurd. It didn’t just go to shit overnight.
No argument from me. Heck I couldnt even give you a timeframe of when in the past it would be morally ok to vote Republican. Just saying I think Timex’'s point was “hey the party was not always like this”. Which i think is right.
My evidence for this is some of my older in laws who now vote Democratic because “The Republican party changed, I didnt”.
But I couldnt give you a year or a decade if I am honest.
Not that we need more evidence of how bad they have become but here we go…
"The Republican-controlled Legislature approved sweeping changes early Wednesday that weaken the governor’s ability to make rules that enact laws. The legislation also shields the state jobs agency from his control until September and cuts into the powers of the incoming Democratic attorney general.
Evers says the state “should be embarrassed” by the Republicans’ actions and that they have ignored the will of voters."
I said as much. Trump is the logical extension of the conservative movement for the last few decades, with an added disregard for truth, to the extent of not even bothering with the appearance of caring about facts. Part of that disregard includes the rule of law, certainly, though I didn’t explicitly say that earlier.
Timex
5529
Of course, but to suggest that he’s just a normal Republican is insane, and minimizes the danger he poses to our country and the world.
Again, we all know this.
We all know that shit is different than it used to be. None of us felt like this when previous Republicans held the office. You might not have liked them, but you didn’t feel like you do now.
Nesrie
5530
I suspect he and others like him would not go far enough back because if they did it would be horrifying how long they continued to tow the party line despite those signs. A few decades is not far enough. Trying to look back and see a Trump moment is not going to reveal anything. they poisoned the well slowly and different parts of it for quite some time.
Trump is what was normalized, pieces at a time… for decades. He’s just all of it, at once.
You have no idea how people felt.
magnet
5531
We all seem to be regarding Trump as an inevitable consequence of Republican mistakes, but hindsight is 20/20. Two years ago, nobody here even thought he could win the nomination.
Yes, one of the big flaws of conservatism is that often serves well, only the majority, or in some case only the rich and powerful, at the expense of minorities and the less powerful. As for Trump, I don’t really agree.
Before, Trump there was a large overlap between GOP and conservatives. But there was also a large element of populism in the old GOP party. Fundamentally, populism and conservatism are at odds with each other. Your interest in keeping old traditions and customs make a hell of lot more sense if you are Wall St Banker, than West Virginia coal miner. Trump ran as populist, with no principals beyond self-interest. He adopted some conservative positions as a matter of political expediency, such as on social issues.
However, when Trump’s populist positions clashed with conservative principals the conservative principals lost.
Mostly without a fight,due to the cowardice of the GOP lawmakers. The issue of free trade is the one area, where GOP legislators are actually are fight for conservative principals against the populist protectionism.
Well I was going to come back with how about “The Contract with America?” which in my memory was mainly about government corruption.
Unfortunately when I looked it up with my 21st century eyes I just see racism and proto fascism all the way through it. So I guess we are gonna have to pick an earlier time…
Nesrie
5534
I am pretty sure Triggercut was telling people not to jump off cliffs yet because he knew people thought he could win. That possibility didn’t show up overnight either. We’re talking about the guy who started the Birther nonsense, and he was even supported then.
Yeah, look despite the GOP talking points, they didn’t lose a few generations of a specific minority group because of their stances on trade with China or beliefs about Russia. That ugly stuff, it’s probably been there for nearly as long as the oldest member on this board has been alive. It’s not new, and it wasn’t hidden. It was ignored.
