The decline to moral bankruptcy of the GOP


#5504



#5505

I mean, I dunno what to tell you. “I don’t believe what people who were there said,” isn’t something there is really to a response to.

This isn’t even related, who said anything about non-aggression? Make better strawmen if you’re gonna toss them around at least.

Bush saw what non-aggression got you. It got you Nazis and Imperial Japan.


#5506

Again, if your only understanding of Republicans and conservatives is a Frankenstein-esque “BAD”, then Trump is just more of the same… But every rational person recognizes that Trump is something different.


#5507

Well shucks, I’m sure he learned his lesson and won’t do that again. Voters will be sure to remember this in two years when he’s re-elected.

Can’t even keep up with all the GOP bullshit.


#5508

Trump may be different than your typical Republican these days but the differences are immaterial to me. It’s like stepping in a pile of border collie shit instead of a bulldog’s shit. It’s all shit and ruins your day, no matter the breed.


#5509

How is Trump different than, say, Sarah Palin? What about Trump is new? He’s no dumber than Palin. He’s no more mean-spirited than Ryan or clueless than W. He’s no more a philanderer than Gingrich. He’s no more corrupt or disgusting than Hastert or Moore.


#5510

Well one leads to the end of democracy and the rule of law.
The other just leads to deficits and shitty policy for the most part. Oh the first one also leads to deficits.

I get what you’re saying (and probably agree for the most part, I left the party a long time ago for a reason), but lets not pretend Trump is some run-of-the-mill Republican. He’s a dire threat to the republic. If he wasn’t as colossally fucking stupid as he is, this experiment would be over. I mean it’s in danger and he’s utterly incompetent in every possible way as are the people helping him. And we still might not make it.


#5511

Honestly, if you guys seriously can’t tell that Trump is different, there’s really no way anyone is going to convince you. But you are being totally insane to think so.

Although it perhaps says something, in that apparently you guys think that Republicans were all just as bad as Trump… So really, there was no reason for them to ever be anything other than Trump… Since you judge them the same anyway.

So i guess the lesson they learned is the correct one.


#5513

Nothing and no one in this imperfect world is all good or all bad. But you can look at what a person or group has done and judge where they fall, and the GOP and conservative movement in general for the last 20-ish years has been largely tending to evil. From economics (ramping up deficits, policies that promote inequality) to social issues (thinly veiled racism, discrimination against LGBT) to power grabs (voter suppression, the stuff going on in WI/MI legislatures right now) to foreign policy (WMDs in Iraq) to demonizing the opposition (Gringrich-era attacks, Rush Limbaugh, birtherism) to morality hypocrisy (all those family values folks caught with mistresses) and so on. Trump is a logical extension of all this, with the main difference being that he doesn’t really try to hide it, just denys the truth and lies repeatedly and ignores any attempt to correct his falsehoods.

To be clear, I’m not saying that Democrats and the liberal movement are perfect…far from it. But I think their policies tend more to good…inclusion, tolerance, empowerment. You’ll always be able to find a few bad examples, but in the aggregate their side of the aisle is making better decisions.


#5514

No he’s not bothering because your position is so far divested from reality that it’s pointless.

If you declare that dogs aren’t real I’m not going to bother trying to convince you. Especially after we spent 2 years looking at pictures of dogs and hanging out with dogs at dog parks.

“Those are cats.”
“You know what, forget it. Have fun with that.”


#5515

He is openly authoritarian. He doesn’t even give lip service to the principles of a democratic republic. He has never once given any indication, in fact, that democracy means a thing to him.

In many ways that may not matter that much, but I think it’s some kind of a line to cross. He’s sure goosed my Democracy Spidey Sense like nobody else.


#5516

I’d agree with that.

But that doesn’t mean Trump isn’t a departure from the norm. He’s the end result of the path they took, but the path isn’t Trumps all the way. Trump is the cliff the path was leading to that everyone plummeted off of.


#5517

Semantics. It’s the same path we’ve seen from the conservative movement for 20+ years. Just because the downward slide gets steep at the end doesn’t mean it’s not part of the same path.


#5518

Well they voted for Trump last month. So I take them at their word that they like what they see.

I dont think its a leap to say everyone who voted Republican in 2018 should now be judged as supporting Trump and his actions.

I mean the whole election was essentially a referendum on him.

edit: I maybe misunderstanding your argument here.

edit2 : I did. I think a lot of people could be forgiven for believing in Republicans during the 90’s. It seemed relatively honest and about regulation, taxes & the role of the market. It was only later that it became transparently obvious just how little those things mattered to the Party.


#5519

Yep. Anyone who wants to use Trump as their get of jail free card… no go. They don’t get to use Trump as some sort of starting point, no matter how they word salad that excuse. Trump is not the reason for the way things are. He is the result of it.


#5520

Trump is damn near all bad. I cannot think of a single thing I find praiseworthy of him, and that makes him somewhat unique.

The idea that he is no different from previous Republicans is absurd… Compare his position on immigrants to that of Reagan, and how he spoke of them in his farewell speech. Or his position on trade. Or his complete and total disregard for the law. Or even just his basic views of what America is about. Compare how Reagan spoke of Nazis and the KKK, compared to how Trump dealt with them. Compare Buckley’s reelection if the Birchers, compared to how the modern GOP has embraced then.

Criticism of Republicans from the past is fine. I am willing to admit that I refused to see what they were becoming over time… But at the same time, a transition did in fact take place.

When you look at the way that men like Reagan and Bush approached authoritarian powers, the difference is stark compared to how Trump deals with them.

And again, we ALL know that something is different now. Anyone saying otherwise is lying. You may have hated Reagan or Bush, but unless you were way out there on the fringe, you didn’t think they were going to destroy the foundation of our country. You didn’t think they would sell us out to the Russians. You didn’t think they were compromised by foreign powers.

Maybe part of it is that it’s been two years now where the crazy has been turned up to 11, but Jesus Christ people, it didn’t used to be like this. Stuff wasn’t like this under any previous Republican president.

You can take the absolute worst, of every Republican ever, and you put it together, and make it worse, and that’s Trump. And the modern GOP, is all about Trump.


#5521

They totally should. The current GOP is terrible. It needs to be destroyed.

But it wasn’t always like this.


#5522

Stalin and Hitler were both evil. That doesn’t mean they shared the same ideology. Likewise Trump and his GOP predecessors.

Until recently Palin did not represent most Republicans. McCain was the presidential candidate after all, not her. After they lost, McCain was reelected to the Senate. Palin never held public office again.

Then there was Romney. He said that Russia was a major U.S. geopolitical foe. Trump treats Russia as an ally. So there’s one difference.

HW opposed aggression by non-Americans, and defended American aggression

Trump defends all aggression.

So there’s another difference.

HW signed NAFTA. Trump hates NAFTA and threatened to walk out. So there’s yet another.

HW signed an immigration bill sponsored by Ted Kennedy, stating “I am also pleased to note that this Act facilitates immigration not just in numerical terms, but also in terms of basic entry rights of those beyond our borders.” Trump… well you know.


#5523

I agree with that. Thanks for the clarification. A rational , decent person in the past could have voted Republican.


#5524

So if you went back in time, you think there is zero things that the GOP party not only could but should do to avoid the inevitable problem of birthing Trump. You don’t think there is anything in the past that led to this moment? I think there is a lot they could have done, and they have a list of problematic leaders that led to this moment. And those moments, those policies and those leaders are pretty obvious if you are not trying to give excuses to the people who ignored them.