I said Bush is wise? In point of fact, I said the opposite.
Trump scares me too, I share that sentiment. In ways that GWB never worried me. My post and point was to highlight that while Trump might be a train wreck of epic proportions that poses a threat to our democracy and to our nation’s interests and security, the actual damage done thus far isn’t quite comparable to GWB’s. IMO. That could obviously change.
Timex
5556
Sorry, that was a typo. That should have read ,“the fact you guys think Bush is worse”
Because that’s insane.
Like seriously, that’s totally disconnected from reality.
ShivaX
5557
I disagree. If Trump was competent we’d no longer be a democracy.
The next Trump wont be an unlikable idiot.
Imagine if we had a Reagan that wanted to be Putin. It would all be over.
Grunden
5558
I don’t think anyone disagrees that Trump is a unique brand of awful. But his administration is spectacularly incompetent.
That claim could not be applied to the Neocons, who were actually effective at implementing their policies. It’s not irrational to prefer the stupid brand of evil.
Of course that’s damning with faint praise. I’d prefer the country not being governed by evil in any fashion, thanks!
I don’t prefer one over the other here, I’m just saying in terms of actual, tangible harm done at this point in their respective presidencies, GWB had done more damage. It’s hard to quantify some of Trump’s damage in the immediate, because things like the Paris Agreement, the Iran deal, his attitude toward NATO and potential harm done to it, gutting the State Dept, his authoritarian attacks on DoJ, the press, the courts, etc., are all rotten fruit that will take some time to ripen.
Despite making this argument, I would put GWB in the bottom 3rd of presidents and for Trump have to do some reading on Buchanan.
Timex
5560
He controls the executive branch of the United States government.
He controls our military.
He has nuclear weapons.
He is compromised by the Russians, and likely by the Saudis, even if that one is only a factor of his greed.
The president of the United States, does not care about the United States. It’s not a question of whether he is going to do a good job protecting us, it’s that he literally does not care about protecting us.
He’s the most powerful man in the world, and he literally only cares about himself. And he’s stupid, and suffering from numerous mental problems.
At no point in my lifetime have i ever felt genuine fear for the future of our nation, and i do now.
Nesrie
5561
Trump hasn’t even finished one term, and we got four from the Bush family… Just imagine that with Trump and then Trump Jr. It’s still no excuse though. They paved the way for Trump… end result is still theirs. It’s just another not so bad whatism approach that got us where we’re at today
Then you were just naive or sheltered.
Matt_W
5562
OK. I mean I guess I could be full of shit. I probably am. But at least I have legitimate rationalizations for it.
Timex
5563
There is absolutely no way this conversation is going to come to any kind of resolution. We are not even in the same plane of reality at this point.
I find myself saying this kind of thing fairly often (little mr. peacekeeper) but I think there are different ways to measure this stuff and y’all are coming at the same problem from different angles. Any disagreement is pretty insignificant and minuscule. That said, my thoughts on the subject line up with Timex more than the counter-argument.
That’s a silly and insulting way to frame the disagreement because someone dares to have a different opinion.
See, here’s the rub: if Trump leaves office in two years and those years are roughly the same as his first two in office, and America elects a decent successor, that person can very quickly repair a rather sizable chunk of the damage. And Congress can codify new restrictions on the executive branch to close those gaps in the armor of our democracy.
Obama, as GWB’s successor, was unable to resurrect the 4k dead service members. He was unable to breathe life into the 10s and 10s of thousands of dead Iraqis. He was unable to bring home the millions of women and children made homeless by that war. He was unable to magically snap his fingers and erase the $1.4 trillion deficit he inherited that first year.
The disconnect between us is one side is offering up concrete examples of damage while you’re projecting a lot of fear and anxiety over what could happen (and no one is disagreeing that Trump has the potential to outclass GWB’s awfulness. . .we’re simply pointing out that it hasn’t happened yet). The refusal to share your anxieties doesn’t make me detached from reality.
Nesrie
5566
Will you please summarize what you think the counter arguments are?
No, thanks. I’d rather play Destiny 2 than argue pointlessly when deep down we all agree.
Grunden
5568
I think it’s a case of talking past each other to be honest.
Firstly, I agree with your position in that he represents the greatest danger the republic, and democracy in general thus far faced by the country. For the reasons you specified and more. I don’t think I’ve had a decent night’s sleep since Nov 2016.
However, from a purely metrics-based viewpoint, the outcomes of the Bush administration were measurably worse…SO FAR. And I’m simply saying that someone holding that view cannot be dismissed as totally divorced from reality.
He could nuke Mexico tomorrow, and is the only president whom I could credibly imagine doing so.
Banzai
5570
Trump hasn’t actually been able to cause the kinds of damage that W did despite his blustery tweets and promises. At least not yet. Whether he is actually eroding the morality in so many americans or just exposing ithe lack thereof, and what the fallout from either of those will be, is something we’ll have to revisit in a decade.
Plus we can give Trump “credit” for women getting fired the f*ck up straight into the House of Representatives and #metoo.
Nesrie
5572
I don’t believe you actually understand the different points of views, maybe just two of them. They’re not all the same.
Timex
5573
Maybe, but this isn’t something that i think is a trivial matter. And that’s what saying “Bush was worse than Trump” or “Trump is just a normal Republican” does.
It trivializes the danger that Trump poses.
Again, we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this. I’m not going to bother trying to make a real argument. It’s obvious to me. Any disagreement is based in really low level, fundament values, and those things aren’t going to change.
And really, this is why i want a new party, because i am definitely not one of you guys.
Banzai
5574
Agreed. You were ok with the GOP of 20 years ago and we were sure as fuck not. You just don’t see the connections between them the way we do, so you think we are the ones who can’ t see clearly. We think you can’t.
