The decline to moral bankruptcy of the GOP


#5565

That’s a silly and insulting way to frame the disagreement because someone dares to have a different opinion.

See, here’s the rub: if Trump leaves office in two years and those years are roughly the same as his first two in office, and America elects a decent successor, that person can very quickly repair a rather sizable chunk of the damage. And Congress can codify new restrictions on the executive branch to close those gaps in the armor of our democracy.

Obama, as GWB’s successor, was unable to resurrect the 4k dead service members. He was unable to breathe life into the 10s and 10s of thousands of dead Iraqis. He was unable to bring home the millions of women and children made homeless by that war. He was unable to magically snap his fingers and erase the $1.4 trillion deficit he inherited that first year.

The disconnect between us is one side is offering up concrete examples of damage while you’re projecting a lot of fear and anxiety over what could happen (and no one is disagreeing that Trump has the potential to outclass GWB’s awfulness. . .we’re simply pointing out that it hasn’t happened yet). The refusal to share your anxieties doesn’t make me detached from reality.


#5566

Will you please summarize what you think the counter arguments are?


#5567

No, thanks. I’d rather play Destiny 2 than argue pointlessly when deep down we all agree.


#5568

I think it’s a case of talking past each other to be honest.

Firstly, I agree with your position in that he represents the greatest danger the republic, and democracy in general thus far faced by the country. For the reasons you specified and more. I don’t think I’ve had a decent night’s sleep since Nov 2016.

However, from a purely metrics-based viewpoint, the outcomes of the Bush administration were measurably worse…SO FAR. And I’m simply saying that someone holding that view cannot be dismissed as totally divorced from reality.

He could nuke Mexico tomorrow, and is the only president whom I could credibly imagine doing so.


#5569

Yep! Exactly that.


#5570

Trump hasn’t actually been able to cause the kinds of damage that W did despite his blustery tweets and promises. At least not yet. Whether he is actually eroding the morality in so many americans or just exposing ithe lack thereof, and what the fallout from either of those will be, is something we’ll have to revisit in a decade.


#5571

Plus we can give Trump “credit” for women getting fired the f*ck up straight into the House of Representatives and #metoo.


#5572

I don’t believe you actually understand the different points of views, maybe just two of them. They’re not all the same.


#5573

Maybe, but this isn’t something that i think is a trivial matter. And that’s what saying “Bush was worse than Trump” or “Trump is just a normal Republican” does.

It trivializes the danger that Trump poses.

Again, we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this. I’m not going to bother trying to make a real argument. It’s obvious to me. Any disagreement is based in really low level, fundament values, and those things aren’t going to change.

And really, this is why i want a new party, because i am definitely not one of you guys.


#5574

Agreed. You were ok with the GOP of 20 years ago and we were sure as fuck not. You just don’t see the connections between them the way we do, so you think we are the ones who can’ t see clearly. We think you can’t.


#5575

And if we needed any further proof that women need to take over running the world, here ya go.


#5576

Of course, you thought they were the same as Trump. Seriously, we don’t perceive things the same.

And really, to be clear, given you think that, then of course you couldn’t think anything they did was ok.

But that’s so crazy to me, because to me, Trump is so obviously worse.


#5577

Trump is way worse than W overall, but is more of a raw force of evil than a morally conscious human. So comparing the two directly is actually kind of difficult.

It’s like saying, which is worse? Lying to your partner about cheating on them? Or ebola?

Obligatory:


#5578

Not me, but please do keep lumping us all together. I thnk trump is all of the bad things out in the open, instead of hidden behind closed doors. Trump is clearly immoral, narcissistic, and willfully ignorant, all of which impair his ability to actually get anything done, thankfully. W ransacked the country for the pocketbooks of his cronies (standard GOP for decades) cough haliburton, caused a whole lot of people to get killed, both at home and abroad, and left the economy in the worst mess since the great depression. W was effective, trump hasn’t been. So far.

I fully expected that W would be the worst president in my lifetime, and then trump said ‘hold my beer’. Luckilly, he hasn’t been able to wreck our democracy yet, and with the house in dem hands now, he may not get another chance. He’s unhinged and clearly a terrible person, both of which I would not say about W. These aren’t character judgements, they are judgements about the actions of the men and the impacts of those actions. And to say that somehow that divorces me from reality is laughable. I laugh. Ha ha.


#5579

Let’s review something here… The GOP gave us Trump. Maybe the people who supported those things in the past, those methods and FOX News shouldn’t tell other people what they can’t see and just listen for awhile instead of peddling advice because they sure as heck weren’t listening before.

It’s like running out of your burned house to tell your neighbor, who did not burn their house down, what to do.


#5580

The horse bit is amazing… But watching it, it reminded me, it referenced back when we thought we might have a war with North Korea.

Remember that? When the president of the United States almost started nuclear war… Over fucking twitter?

Remember that? Cause that’s so fucking crazy! And it happened. Like, a few months ago. And so much fucking crazy shit has happened in those few months, that i had FORGOTTEN that the president of the United States almost started nuclear war, over Twitter.

And that’s why the idea that anyone is worse than Trump, or that Trump is like anything else, breaks my mind.


#5581

Not worse than. It’s not a moral judgement about who is the better person. Think about it as causing actual damage through actions as president. W has arguably caused more actual damage than Trump. That’s what is being said. Can Trump take the lead? Of course, but he hasn’t so far, despite his idiocracy.


#5582

I think starting a post to a fellow Qt3 regular with the phrase “I don’t believe you actually understand…” is poor form. It’s a communication issue. I feel like a fight has been picked with Timex when it would be so easy to instead find the areas of agreement (yep, Trump sucks) and build from there (well, yeah, but remember W sucked too!) Then a civil conversation instead of tempers flaring. Emotions fuck us up so much and people aren’t careful enough in here or in politics.


#5583

Sure, but being told that you are totally disconnected from reality by a former GOP member isn’t exactly neighborly either now, is it?


#5584

The exact statement was:

I’d go so far as to say that I prefer Trump in office to Bush.

And again, that breaks my mind.

I’m not trying to convince anyone its wrong. I’m honestly just totally blown away by it. It’s like 2+2=5 to me.

And like I said, I think it’s just based on some really deep, fundamental difference.