Oghier
2737
The power-gamey approach is as follows:
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Alchemy and Provisioning have passives that make you better at consuming, not just making. They’re also the easiest professions to level, so it’s reasonable to do these on every character you’re serious about
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Clothier/ Woodworking/ Blacksmithing are moderately difficult to level, but there’s no reason to have more than one character with deep expertise in any of them. Those special crafting stations for set items are available in every faction. Note, it is worthwhile for all your alts to invest one or two points in the Hireling passives for these three crafts, so you collect more upgrade materials
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Enchanting is far more difficult to level than the others. Trying to do it on more than one character would be crazy. I’ve chosen ‘none’ and buy enchants from vendors or guildies
At VR5, I find that crafting is the source of almost all my gear. It has been for some time, and it looks like that will continue unless I get very lucky with some dungeon drops. Even then, I’ll use crafting to improve them.
That seems very DAOC-ish. There, until TOA at least, crafted stuff was the norm for end game gear.
Oghier
2739
A reaction-time test has arrived for Zenimax. A major PvP exploit appears to have been discovered a few days past, and now it’s everywhere. The issue is Caltrops. As it turns out, standing in a friendly Caltrops field makes you immune to any siege machine damage. I PvP every day, and I’d never seen anyone use Caltrops before this week. Now, well… that’s changed.
This is exactly the sort of thing that good devs hotfix in a hurry. I’ll be curious to see how ZOS handles it.
From the official boards:
This thread:
ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin 12:37PM Staff Post
We can confirm there is currently a bug with Caltrops, as some of you have called out. We have a fix for it that will go live shortly after the Craglorn patch.
I’m still enjoying the gameplay pace, the combat style and the virtual world a lot, in general, but I’m starting to get a bit pissed off at the flakiness wrt frequent lag spikes. Especially when the combat is so realtime-ish, and some of the bosses are fairly unforgiving and timing-dependant. This is unfortunately highlighted by the fact that response in Elder Scrolls games is usually instant, them being single-player games. So when you hit E to loot or R to Take All, it’s extra irritating when you get a lag spike and nothing happens, because the control system is sufficiently close to TES style to highlight the disparity.
Harvesting and crafting are kind of enjoyable adjuncts to the game - if you wander around a lot. However, the trouble is, when wandering around becomes semi-mandatory to improve your gear, it becomes less enjoyable and just as much of a chore as killing 10 rats. One might be an explorer by main temperament, but that doesn’t mean one always feels like playing that way, but if one doesn’t, then one misses out on mats, because that’s how one finds sufficient of the relatively sparsely-distributed nodes to actually make anything good.
This is the first MMO in ages where I’ve been struggling to keep my gear up to snuff - compared to recent MMOs like, say, GW2 or Neverwinter, where it’s really easy to stay in +1 or +2 gear all the time. This is good in one way (challenge is good), but also annoying too - again, at those moments where you just want to get on.
Another thing that’s not working very well for me so far is grouping - twice now I’ve grouped up with people for boss instances and something has gone wrong with the system such that we seem to be either in different instances or invisible to each other (not sure which, language barriers with the people I’ve grouped with so far).
It’s funny because I’ve always considered these two - responsiveness and smooth grouping facility - to be high priority “must get basics right” things for any MMO.
Huh, I hadn’t thought about any of that, mainly because I wasn’t aware of some of the common experiences, but also because I didn’t until now begin to connect the diversity of the ESO skill system to the archetypes that this and most MMOs adopt and pontificate – namely the tank, the healer, the damage dealer and (in some MMOs such as COH) the defender. How grouping tends to play out is much more complicated and doesn’t quite match those archetypes, strictly speaking. Not in ESO, anyway.
As I digest your last paragraph I am realizing that like your sorcerer, my main character, the templar, is a damage dealer who can sometimes double as a tank because I noticed that while in the group I described above, as she dealt out damage she often but didn’t usually attract the agro of an enemy or boss, and sometimes she could sustain the attention and sometimes she was too squishy or maybe wasn’t receiving enough healing, and had to withdraw. So maybe, if I group a lot more with that character, I will need to develop strategies for different scenarios. Interesting stuff, thanks, Teiman.
I hope the MMOs of the future will start offering reporting systems that allow players to look at and manipulate aggregated data coming from group combat situations, so that they can analyze how various battles played out. Team leaders could extrapolate and make judgements about they might organize groups differently, design alternate battle plans and strategies, and individual players could plan character skills differently and more intelligently.
I just remembered a complaint that I have about potions. I sure wish we could pop more than one at a time. Maybe not a full quickbar and full access to pop potion after potion, but if I heal up it would nice to be able to replenish magicka sooner than when the whatever the standard cooldown period is expires. My templar is slowly building skill in alchemy and I haven’t studied the full spectrum of potions. Are there combo potions?
Teiman
2743
The combo potions seems very powerfull, 300 of each thing, plus maybe some extra damage 10 seconds. The problem I see… is finding the mats for alchemy don’t seems as easy than other stuff. I killed a boss in a dungeon, and I got multiple stacks of 100 health potions, about 60 filled grand souls gems, around 30 automaton rings, and lots and lots of gray and green gear to break. Your inventory fills from fighting in some areas superquick, with stuff you can sell of break to get mats. But with alchemy you have to scout for two hours in some low level map, to make a stack of 100 pots?
On the craglord patch they are going to add a obituary screen with information about what killed you. I think that will help people :D
Oghier
2744
The MMO’s of the past did this, or some at least permitted it. Any MMO with a proper combat log can be parsed. There are popular, multi-game addons for this, the most popular of which is probably Recount. As a group leader in The Secret World, after each boss fight I could tell exactly how much damage/ healing/ damage taken each party member had, and how exactly that occurred. You had all the information needed to analyze and improve your play.
TESO used to have this, but they chopped it deliberately just before release. Now, you can still see your own combat data (Recount has an addon for TESO), but only yours. It’s available over at ESOUI, if you want to have a look.
There is the down side to this. Now, to be fair, I have used parsers at times since I started MMOs. I use them heavily in betas (often for expansions with skill/mechanics changes), and even devs benefit when we post detailed conclusions with actual data. I will not argue with the upsides, they are there. And, TESO cut out more things than your own data in the API right before release. As I said upthread, it helped I got into the beta to learn some mechanics before they did that.
But, parsers don’t catch all the data. A GOOD group/raid leader will realize that. But a bad leader/analyzer won’t. Players with more of a hotdog mentality will also argue even with good leaders and claim favoritism is why they value some players over the raw stat number rankings. And once you start parser chasing you play very, very differently. And yes, can manipulate the results, sometimes easily depending on class mechanics. Just two examples, for a lower parse: a dps that uses the classes CC to peel from the healers often, and in a timely fashion. Not topping the parse, but the job was probably a needed team part in beating the fights. Or, for the higher parse: a healer, using fast ticking HoTs and dropping them quickly, one hot per person across a raid to get the most heal credit, when the best use is to stack rolling hots on people that need it to add a safety buffer to your big healers, instead they get parse credit for everyone taking minor splash damage, as well as the tanks. I was both example players. ;) Raid leader when I played the first was super happy to have me even though was a dps class often considered full of poor players, but the raid leader in the other game’s practice raids where I did the heal trick was also impressed. /facepalm
In some games, by later in the game and their release cycle much of the play was “play-by-parser”, even in pick up group play. When I have been involved in helping crack fights that late in the game cycle, you just have to assume a subset of your dps and healers are going to play to “top the parse” rather than be a team member and beat the fight. You may even have to watch tank rotations if there is competition for a new spot to see if they are playing for the team or playing the parser. Now, playing the parser can be super fun to a numbers geek, as well as a hyper-egotistical selfish player. Sometimes, people are both.
So stat tools can be extremely to moderately helpful for a smart leader and/or a good analyst type in certain situations. They can be incredibly toxic to gameplay and community too. I just had to point that out. People are broken. Maybe this is why it is hard to have nice things, yadda, yadda.
Teiman
2746
Its two different games we are playing.
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One game is “You are a wizard in a medieval world, and you are also somewhat a rogue, and you like to do random adventures, and maybe save people here and there, because you have a heart made of gold.”, aka, people that like to immerse themselves in a virtual world different than their own, and live fantasy adventures.
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The other game, “Precise analysts tools tell you about the performance playing using the build #444 as is designated by our raid sargent in the forum post. Since we have not meet the damage quota on the past dungeon, we are risking getting moved from Group Alpha and force to play with Group Delta. We got -4 DKP because one our pieces is only green”…aka people that like to play games like some sort of virtual sport taken very seriously by the players.
Dungeons are (I think) raider content. So its normal that raiders are missing tools like damage logs. While most other people are somewhat confused why these dungeons are so hard. The game is not giving damage numbers, to avoid being your typical MMORPG with a cripplingly complex interface.
And never the twain shall meet. That’s why I think MMORPGs need to split into two paths: a path like the current one, continuing along the current trend, which basically caters to the latter e-sport type, who are probably in the majority, and a more simmy path, for the former type, who may well be in a minority, but maybe (?) enough to fill a few smaller-scale but high quality games based on different themes (e.g. s-f, fantasy, superheros).
I know this goes somewhat against Bartle wisdom (you need all types for the game to be healthy), but I wonder if that wisdom pertains to a more archaic era when playing online with other people was new and intrinsically exciting.
Continuing to try and satisfy all comers in these types of games I think is leading to a situation where neither side is very happy with what’s produced.
I guess the difficulty is trying to convince investors that there would still be a good return on a more simmy concept.
KevinC
2748
That’s why I don’t think we’ll see something like this come out of a AAA studio, they’re far more interested (for obvious reasons) in catering to the LCD and maximizing subscriptions.
Last year we did start to see some MMOs that are more narrowly focused via Kickstarter. Camelot Unchained is a RvR-only MMO and Shroud of the Avatar sounds like it’ll be more aligned to the RP/sim side than the typical Diku gearmill. I’m interested to see how both of those pan out, both in terms of how good of games they are and how well they are able to survive by staying lean and focusing on a niche.
I personally feel that the age of the one-size-fits-ALL MMO are over and attempts to do so are misguided, especially right out the gate. I feel like a lot of MMOs try to be everything for everyone and just end up being unsatisfactory to most of their playerbase, which rapidly evaporates. I’m hoping that niche-oriented MMOs can focus on their area of specialty and grow from there, similar to how EVE online has done.
Well, TESO is aiming for the Casual B-market MMO (60-80 range) and the singleplayer-story RPG’er who finished Skyrim and wants to try something else for a few weeks, where there is no need for proper feedback or aiming. Actual numbers etc would only make it apparent how much stuff is broken outside of those issues being blatantly exploited (Vampire Emperors, Caltrops, Dupes and whatnot).
I’m sure they’ll get to fix issues eventually, probably as a student project or some thing.
TESO wanted to be a singleplayer RPG and an awesome MMO with massive combat, sadly it was neither. All the things it did, someone else had done before (and better).
Great discussion, guys. It’s a safe bet that I’ll never play an MMO long enough to want to become a group leader, and so I’m mostly interested in looking at the results of my own participation in group dungeon situations, because I want to optimize my performance in whatever role it is I’m trying to play, and maybe pick a different role if it seems like that’s best. I’m sure lots of casual players – but, as you say, probably only a minority – would also appreciate feedback like that.
Recently I completed a Greenshade quest during which I received what I thought would be a temporary +5 armor buff called Spirit Armor. I figured it would last an hour, or until the quest finished, whichever was sooner. Well, five levels or so later and long after I completed that quest, the buff remains and I think it’s here to stay. So I’m like, awesome! A good bug, for a change. Then I come across an eso forums thread where the majority of participants are up in arms about it. Apparently they just don’t like the visual effect the buff brings with it, which are some magical, swirling/fading feathers. I just can’t understand that perspective. The feathers are very subtle, and I barely notice the effect on myself or on anyone else. So why complain about a permanent +5 armor buff that doesn’t require investing in a skill or occupying an inventory or equipment slot, and doesn’t compete with other buffs? I guess most players are way more fastidious about their character’s appearance than I am.
Yeah, it seems that everyone is in agreement about Alchemy and Enchantment, and I’m finding the same thing. Seems to me that the balancing is way out of whack between those and Provisioning. With the latter, it’s super easy to max the skill out before you hit L30, or even sooner in some cases, provided (hah, sorry) you manage inventory well and are OCD about looting crates, bags and other receptacles, and the important thing is, you can do these things without slowing down quest progression and character leveling. Leveling Alchemy and Enchanting skills at anything more than a glacial pace, it seems to me, requires a LOT of grindy activities – circling spots where materials show up, namely – and this competes with quest completion, and any combat you might find along the way doesn’t amount to many leveling points. I mean, at L27, having not specifically devoted hours of my time to mindless plant/stone gathering (although I do always keep an eye out), my Alchemy skill is only at 12 and Enchanting at 10, and I derive zero benefit from having either skill.
Aeek
2752
My first successful PvP = I didn’t die. I prefer 1st person but for sneaking around the war front 3rd person zoomed out helps. I saw him just before he hit me in the back hard enough to be knocked back by my Death’s Wind set! That, plus spamming my 2.5s L17 NightBlade invisibility spell and jinking got me away.
I think not having a horse helps with the wilderness gathering plus I enjoy the journey. A char in each alliance seems good for alchemy and a pain for provisioning.
Scouting missions are a good opportunity for alchemy gathering too and the reagents are immediately useful. The L40 solvents will make for rapid levelling once I can use them. Gathering Ebonthread is good practice for spotting next to impossible things. I’m anti spending the skill point since its medium armour mats where I struggle, even with 3 clothing hirelings. More often than not, its flax. Think I get most of my hides from scouting missions too, since they drop at my level.
jostly
2753
While the game seems to encourage dungeon setups of tank+healer+2 dps, it is seldom necessary in my experience (dungeons up to level 30-ish). Most of the mobs in the dungeons are larger groups of regular type mobs, and if you can handle 3 of those normally, a group of 4 can handle 12 if split equally.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it’s much more dependent on the skill of the player than any particular skill combo. If you are adept at blocking heavy attacks, stepping out of special attacks before they happen, etc, then you’ve negated a lot of the damage you would otherwise have had to been healed through.
The most efficient dungeon groups I’ve been in are those that have forgot about the “everyone on the tank’s target” type of combat learned in wow and other games. If you’re dps, take down one of the myriad of adds at a time, whichever is in range. That’ll pull heat off the tank and make life much easier for the healer who is probably using a resto staff and likes it much better if everyone takes a little damage than one player taking a lot of it.
Really deeply into it now, level 15 and done about 3/4 of Glenumbra. Very much a honeymoon phase, “in the saddle” and loving it to bits.
Something about the way they’ve set up the quest system gives it a very un-mechanistic feeling for me - even compared to single player games. There’s a very natural flow to the questing that miniaturises and compresses the feeling of being a wanderer coming across interesting stuff. The quest-givers mostly seem situated in their environments, and not just “quest dispensers”, but part of the story, my story, the story of my character moving through the virtual world.
I’ve gotten into addons a bit, but I’m still holding on to the sparseness of the UI and keenly aware of not “spoiling” the delicate precision the developers have got going wrt how you get just enough information to keep this flow going.
For example, the thought of having something like floating numbers makes me feel sick. Do not want. Not at this stage anyway - maybe later, when I’m getting into min-maxing builds, etc. But at the moment, I want to feel immersed, and the game’s doing a great job of that for me.
An update was pushed out and there’s an enormous patch. I’m at 19% and have 18GB to go at 12 mB/s.
Edit: Damn, Spirit Armor bug was fixed and all my add-ons are broken now, even after updating them. And at least one quest was either arbitrarily reset or reset to fix a quest bug.
But the death recap is pretty cool:
Note that you have to hit R to go to a wayshrine, now. E now invokes a soul gem on-the-spot resurrect.
Also noticed that dual-screen support has changed. Before, I could hit the Windows key and mouse over to my secondary display while still showing the game in the first display. Now, hitting the Windows key seems to minimize the game window. I suppose they must have done this to address some bug that wasn’t affecting some players such as this one. Not a huge inconvenience, but there are some situations when I want to have what’s displayed in the game available while I use the secondary display.
