Look Granath, I’m sorry if i came off as being overly critical of you. We aren’t gonna see eye to eye on this I don’t think.
Repeating it does not make it any more true. No more than the Bible is “just a book” or a nativity scene is “just a display”. In this you are objectively wrong. All of these are establishments of religion when exclusively used by government agencies.
What part here is multifaceted? Please show me another religious song that is being played on my child’s list. Since there is not one, you can just throw that argument out the window. Half your argument is made up of this red herring. I have already said, MANY MANY MANY MANY times that if this were a multi-cultural event I would not have a problem with it. I have a problem with the fact this is NOT a multi-cultural event. It is a mono-cultural event which is the very definition of establishment.
Again, the prevention of the establishment of a religion is not the same thing as an advocacy of one. You fail to understand the difference between the advocacy of nothing and the advocacy of something. My beliefs require no action on the part of anyone whatsoever yet you believe that is somehow oppression. Your argument is quite literally the same one Kim Davis tried to use to not issue gay marriage licenses. A government agent somehow is oppressed because they do not get to act in accordance with their exclusive religious beliefs. You believe I am oppressing a government agent because they do not get to promote their religious beliefs. It did not work for her and it does not work now.
I already answered that question. The fact that you failed to understand it actually makes me pity you.
So is Zug Nit Kaymal, but there’s zero chance of that being in the recorder book, despite its far more valuable message (in English, the first lines are “Never say that there is only death for you, though leaden skies may be concealing days of blue.”). Let My People Go is a fun song too, why isn’t that in there? And those are just a couple Judaism-centric songs.
The fact that a song about how the grace of god will save you and that without it you are blind and lost is “just a song” seems like a problem of overwhelming religious promotion if not indoctrination. I’ll admit that my initial reaction to Granath’s post was that it’s rather extreme, I mean I learned those songs as a kid and I turned out fine. But I definitely learned to think of Jewish stuff as secondary and weird. I didn’t care that much, since it was like being part of a private club (and since I never really believed in god), but nonetheless the idea that it’s fine for people to think Jew stuff is different from normal stuff is clearly problematic even to this day.
Right, I specifically said that I think including more great songs from more sources like the ones you mention is the best solution.
Sure, but the stuff i posted right after that sentence that you ignored, kind of does.
Amazing Grace is an old, popular song. It does not, in even the tiniest way, require religious faith to appreciate it as a musical piece.
It doesn’t make you Christian to sing or hear it. It is just a song. It has no magical powers.
Our society is multifaceted. We are exposed to elements of each other’s culture, and that’s good.
No, not at all, because this list of songs isn’t the entirety of society. Every atomic grain of society does not need to contain equal parts of everything. Society does not need to be uniform and homogenous.
I could say something here, but i have a feeling that I’m not the only one thinking it.
I imagine most of those are on the play list, I’m pretty sure they were when I was in elementary school. As for pop songs, then you have to deal with copyright issues, no thanks.
So you are hoping to participate in a Christmas festival/concert/celebration/party with no hint of Christianity?
And technically if it an instrumental version on recorder, and nobody is singing along, it isn’t Amazing Grace. It is a tune named “New Britain” which becomes a hymn when sung with the lyrics. I don’t think this is being pedantic, since your objection is to the text, which you can opt out of, unless it’s a singalong.
How observant. Yes, because it is largely an excuse that has been used throughout history to promote one culture over another, one religion over another, one race over another. Dominance so often comes in the guise of music, writing, culture when the ultimate aim is quite often the promotion of that culture.
How many times have we heard that students should learn western history? It is most definitely history but the ultimate aim is the promotion of a particular culture and a particular mind set. We have heard multiple times that we should allow Christmas plays and Christian nativity scenes on the town square because that is what the Founding Fathers celebrated yet we know that is a ploy for the promotion of Protestantism. Have you never heard of a government-sponsored art festival where all of the paintings depict exclusively Christian themes? I have and yet been denied funds for a Mapplethorpe display or a Chinese art display. Suddenly there are no funds. Much like anything else, art, music, writing can be used as cultural weapons. So I do not ask your forgiveness in putting it in quotes.
Whether this teacher is just unaware or whether they are purposely trying to promote Christianity through this musical lesson really matters not as the end result is still the same. Since I cannot determine their motives and the gentle reader will notice I have never once questioned their motives, I asked quite nicely for their consideration in this matter.
No, there is not going to be a Christmas concert. There is going to be a Holiday concert. And if there are hints (I would dare suggest Amazing Grace is more than a mere hint) of Christianity there better damn well be hints of other religions.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
The Free Exercise clause is right up there with the establishment clause as our first right.
As practical matter this question has been litigated to death. Before you go about trying to get the ACLU involvement. I suggest you do some research.
This is one of the better articles.
And this quote from a 1st amendment scholar is a good an explanation why you should lose this fight.
Courts have consistently ruled that including religious songs in school events is constitutional, as long as the program is educational and not devotional or proselytizing. But any state mandate that sacred music must be a part of holiday programs is likely to run afoul of the establishment-clause prohibition on government endorsement of religion.
The First Amendment solution is stunningly simple: Schools should plan holiday programs that are educational in purpose and balanced in content. Nothing in the First Amendment prohibits public schools from educating students about music, religious and secular, as part of a comprehensive music program that exposes students to a variety of traditions and cultures.
Of course, it is also true that nothing in the First Amendment requires schools to include religious songs … But millions of Americans celebrate Christmas in December, and for schools to pretend that Christmas either doesn’t exist or is entirely secular is just plain silly….
Since somewhere in the firmament it is written that every public school must have a holiday concert in December, school officials need to get it right. That means ignoring the Restorers who want to re-impose an earlier regime by converting school auditoriums into local churches. But it also means ignoring the Removers who seek to eliminate all mention of religion in public schools.
Is it? They you get into the overly fussy question of whether you’ve thrown in enough Jewish, Muslim, etc stuff, to justify all the old, well-known, beautiful songs that someone got their hackles up about because they happen to mention god’s grace or Saints a zillion times.
If you’ve read what I’ve said in this discussion, then none of that makes sense as a reply to me.
I’m super-clearly not advocating the promotion of one culture, religion, or race over another. But you can put me down in the pro-art column. Too much Christian art in this country and not enough other art is a battle worth fighting. But get rid of the Christian art in the process? No, thank you.
And as I’m writing this, I see your subsequent post is saying the same exact thing I am. You’re all over the place, dude.
You may have more effect with the direct argument that “Amazing Grace” is NOT a Holiday song, and therefore it’s relevance is primarily the religious context. If it was a religious song which is directly seasonal or associated with Christmas thematically, you would probably get rebuffed on “secular Christmas culture” grounds.
I believe you missed the part of your own article that mentioned balanced in content and a variety of traditions and cultures. 25% Christian and 75% secular is not balanced in content nor does it promote any other tradition or culture. Had there been any balance in content then we would not be having this discussion.
For a logical starting point, I think the song selection can be guided by the religious and racial make-up of the audience/community.
I’ve had to adapt to this line of thinking in my job as a film school prof. Over the years, I got some criticism for not showing enough foreign films or films with female writers, directors, or protagonists. Getting called out on this made me a bit defensive initially but, over time, the message landed and I’ve tried to evolve each and every year.
This semester I screened Sorry to Bother You and Yi Yi along with plenty of films by and about women like Thelma & Louise, The Babadook, Eighth Grade, and Short Term 12. (About 70% of my students are white, 20% Asian, and 10% black.)
Heh, again, amazing Grace is pretty much always one of the early songs you learn on a recorder, because it’s easy to play enough of it that it’s recognizable. It’s a very easy sequence of finger movements, especially at the beginning.
The same goes for the saints go marching in. I learned the same songs when i was in elementary school in music class. I think everyone did.
Do a Google search for “beginner recorder songs” or “recorder songs for kids”. Those are the songs you get, along with things like twinkle twinkle Little Star.
I seriously doubt that the music teacher in this case is some kind of religious zealot trying to convert kids through the all powerful indoctrination medium of “recorder music”.
Lol, I’m playing YouTube videos of recorder songs, and my cat Claudia is going nuts for them.
It also reminded me of another song we learned when i was a kid, “Frere Jaques”, which i never even considered a “religious song” until this thread… For years when i was really little, i never understood that it was “brother John” or that he was a monk… I always associated him with a weird blue bird, since the music teacher used a puppet that was a blue bird as Jaques.
I do not know how to make this clearer.
I have never once called for the elimination of Christian content because it was Christian. I have maintained that if no other religious content is happening then there must be an elimination of Christian content. If she had brought home 8 religious songs from 8 different religions then I would have no issue with it. Shite, I would probably help her practice - and given how horrible a recorder sounds, that says something. Instead, she brought home 8 songs, 2 of which are religious in context with one being overwhelmingly so (for all the bluster Amazing Grace is a religious hymn).
Whether or not this is simply an oversight by the teacher or an attempt to slide in a personal agenda remains to be seen. That the words were included with this song but interestingly enough not with some others makes me wonder. Either make the presentation secular or make it multi-faith but do not represent only one religion at a holiday concert. That does not sit well.
Wait wait wait… What are they other songs?
I mean, out of 8 songs, two are “religious”, and you think it’s some kind of conspiracy?
Try to keep up. That was only part of my original post.
Now I want to know the list as well. Come on, give us the list!