Surely some kind of decency statutes on the books would suffice?
Eh, that’s a good point, although I generally think decency statutes are bullshit.
This is where, i dunno how to put this, we need to educate / train / have a different standard for women. Take your pick. Ultimately if a woman feels threatened but doesn’t come forward it’s extrmely hard to receive justice so much later after the fact. Yes we know the reasons why but it doesn’t revoke the problem either.
Because women feel threatened by and are subject to and have difficulty standing up to the power structures run by men, we probably should have a different standard. Quite a lot of metoo and women’s right in the last couple of years is essentially been angling for a second standard without outright saying so (because women feel uncomfortable actually saying or believing they want a second standard), by pointing out all these power imbalances and problems and then saying, in essence, “somebody fix this!”
I am not sure he ever apologized. He admitted he did it and then talked a lot about… himself.
Your point about the limits of public shaming is a good one but I don’t understand this part. Contextualizing, sure, if you mean putting it in perspective with other crimes so we can work on a just response. But normalizing? Who is doing that? You think if he’s allowed back in the spotlight it would normalize what he did? Guess I don’t see it that way.
For the record, here’s the original statement Louis CK put out:
It is fairly thoroughly dissected in the first few pages of
See… to me, that seems like a pretty good apology.
And to whom did he apologize? There’s no apology in there, just regret.
- a regretful acknowledgment of an offense or failure.
Admitting that you did something, and that it was wrong, and expressing regret… is an apology.
Certainly, that’s dramatically better than simply saying the word “Sorry” without actually admitting any fault.
Did he ever apologize to the victims? The people he actually did something wrong to? He could have done that with that statement, but he did not.
This is not about the man. This is about his victims.
I dunno, Nesrie. When someone says they have remorse, they cannot forgive themselves and they acknowledge that they have caused hurt and anguish… that’s a long and introspective apology, isn’t it?
You can question whether it represents sincere introspection and regret, or whether it’s just a PR step on the road to fixing his career. Perhaps the ending phrase, “… take a long time to listen” seems dishonest now, as not many of us consider nine months away to be a long time.
I would have expected any such apology to have been given directly to those people, and not in the public.
For a public statement, what he did is pretty much exactly what someone should do. He made no excuses, admitted fault, and expressed his regret. And he went further, to express that he actually understood why it was wrong, and explained such things in detail.
Yeah scratch out long time and replace it with less than a year and then I’ll test the waters by just showing up and not giving anyone a choice as whether or not they want to see my spiel.
He admitted fault, sure, and then spent a lot of time talking about himself. That’s the problem many of these aritcles are talking about. He does it. He steps away. He chooses. It’s all about his choices and when he wants it and a completely self-centered approach, all on his terms which is no different from most the crimes, legal or social, these men committed. Their apologies often reflect the same thing.
I am sure he reflected a lot though.
That’s required by a good apology. It’s about what he did that was wrong, and why.
Also, 9 months is a long time. Any kind of reflection is gonna be done in that amount of time. Suggesting it needed to be longer is a totally arbitrary requirement.
Well then you go ahead and send a young daughter into a room with him, test things out. I’m sure there is no risk there because he’s sorry but never actually says he’s sorry. It’ll be fine… probably.
Personally, I don’t really have any fear that he would do something to molest a child… I’m not sure why you would think that. I mean, there’s literally no suggestion that he did anything like that.
But, even putting that aside… since you apparently have such beliefs… how long would it take for you to be ok with it? Because I’m thinking that the answer is “infinity time”.
I never said she was a minor. Just you know, someone you care whom you want to introduce to this guy who might help her career. Since you think he’s perfectly fine now, if you have a young woman who trusts you and your judgment and she wants to be a comedian, I am sure you have no concerns about sending her into a room with this guy.
I honestly don’t think he’d do anything at this point.
But since you clearly do, how long until you don’t?
I am not sure what the number is, but it’s not 9 months. It would help if he came off less concerned about his career and getting on stage and more concerned about, pretty much anything else. It’s too soon, and no, it’s not arbitrary. How many years did he commit sexual violence against others?
We’ve established how I’m over-eager to forgive him and I would venture to say that you skew in the opposite direction. (It’s not me vs you of course but I think we represent the two “sides” in this debate.) That said…
I don’t think it’s fair to claim that he was talking about himself in his statement with the implication that he’s being egotistical or self-serving. I take it at face value. This is a man who’s been processing his shameful acts and sharing how he justified them and misunderstood or didn’t properly comprehend the gravity of his professional and moral responsibilities. Throughout his statement, there is language which clearly expresses contrition, remorse, a growing understanding about the severity of what he did, and acknowledgement of the harm he’s done to his victims.
I read all of that as coming from a place of trying to articulate something helpful for the #metoo movement because even though he’s the enemy, he’s also an ally. That might sound crazy or infuriating but human beings are complex. I’ve felt it in my job as a professor, trying to keep up with 18 year-olds as the generation gap widens and I start to feel like an enemy in a war I’m trying to win. I am not racist but I am a little bit racist. I am not sexist but I am a little bit sexist. It’s the same debate that’s going on in the McCain discussion… human beings defy easy classification into Good vs Bad. And this circles back around to me wanting to hear what he has to say on the subject because that statement was a beginning and I’d like to hear more.
Louis will face fierce, unwavering opposition from a certain section of the public for the rest of his life. And that’s as it should be. Many of them will be people who didn’t know him or his work prior to the allegations. Their size and outrage is yet to be determined. But like Armando on McCain, forgiveness or compassion are simply not ever going to enter into it. Some folks live firmly in the Hell Yes or Fuck No margins but after a certain point that starts to come off as repetitive and simplistic. I think we should try to navigate the more difficult and complicated middle ground. Not for Louis but for everyone else.