Exactly this.
I wonder how many instances of “playing hard to get” was actually someone just giving in to relentless nagging.
A minor point, but no, they are not in the same industry. Aziz isn’t sitting around making and breaking the careers of photographers at awards ceremonies.
We’re saying she can’t use verbal cues but he can? Because again, at what point did he decide he wanted sex tonight, and did he tell her? It’s a double standard to say she has to verbalize her wants but he doesn’t? When he asked her over, was that his intention? We don’t know. Most the details are coming from her, and he just gave a short response that kind of confirmed her version but said yeah it was consensual though.
Maybe it’s old fashion, but there should be a mutual understanding about sex when you have it, and that mutual understanding about sex includes an understanding your’e going to have it.
These are not a couple of pre-teens here just figuring things out; this is two adults, and one of them literally wrote a book about romance.
I probably should have said similar circles, but again, the idea that you can only sexually assault someone if they have power over you is generally not true.
Similar circles, fair enough.
I’m not sure I understand exactly the idea that you can sexually assault someone without power over them. My first instinct is to disagree, but I’d like to hear more of your explanation of this. Just in the abstract, not specific to Aziz.
Edit: even with just a moment to reflect, I can see how the argument could be made, but I think it comes down to defining sexual assault in ways that probably need clarification so there’s not misunderstanding. For example, someone just exposing themselves to someone else. It can be done without warning and with no “power”, I totally understand that. It’s already happened by the time the victim can react, regardless of who’s in control of the situation. But some would argue that’s harassment, not assault, some would argue there’s no difference, etc. So I guess I’ve answered my own question, it’s just another tricky thing to communicate.
The fact that we only have one side of the story makes it somewhat unfair to judge Aziz, but even the side we have is not damning at all.
But her story is a mishmash of bullshit. I mean, what kind of fucking sexual assault story starts with complaining about not getting the kind of wine you prefer?
If I put myself into the mind of someone who really doesn’t want to be in this situation, this seems quite terrible:
You’d think that you’d probably just, you know, leave.
That’s probably not a hill worth dying on in debating this story, as what we’re getting is a writer’s account of the evening. We’re not dealing with a police report from the victim here, some (wine) color commentary isn’t what any of this is about.
Your capacity to misinterpret and misunderstand is pretty remarkable.
No, Nesrie, that’s (obviously??) not what I meant.
Maybe the word “rely” would’ve been more clear for you? So I could have said, “Meanwhile, women like Grace can rely less upon non-verbal cues and use more verbal cues.”
I’m going to try and find the article; there are so many it’s buried, but there was a case that came up last year where he basically said it couldn’t be sexual assault or harassment because he wasn’t her boss and didn’t control her career, and it described that problems with trying to define it that narrowly.
I don’t know how you can say it’s bullshit and then pick and choose what she says to defend Aziz when the entire thing is her POV.
Don’t be an ass.
He is just as capable of verbalizing what he wants as she is, but for some reason we’re only holding her accountable to it. Why?
This whole exchange started because Timex asked me what he did wrong… as if he did nothing wrong. From my POV, his list his pretty darn long. At some point he decide he wanted sex. At one point she decided she didn’t. And neither one of them told the other, as in actual verbal full words… although she did say she said no in her piece.
I’m trying to figure out how much more explicit he can be in signaling he wanted sex than saying “Where do you want me to fuck you” and having a hard time.
Yes, and if you put yourself into the mind of that person, why wouldn’t you say, “Stop!” and “I want to leave now,” instead of hanging around for 30 minutes?
Perhaps I can’t empathize beyond the idea of thinking that if I were in a situation where someone was doing this stuff to me and I didn’t want it, I’d leave. Why didn’t she leave? Why didn’t she verbalize? I put myself in her situation and that’s what I would do, and I am hard-pressed to come up with a good reason for not doing that. What was she hoping would happen? That he would calm down and they would have a meeting of the minds and then embark on a wonderful relationship together after getting over this rough beginning? I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to imagine that Ansari misread the situation. He was much more aggressive than I’ve ever been in a similar situation, so I see some fault there, but I don’t see this as assault.
I’m thinking before she comes over would have been the nice, polite thing to do.
But again, turning into a cold fish, and I think she said she stopped responding… she’s probably thinking how much clearer can I be I don’t want to fuck you and then the circle starts again.
Ha ha. Probably some kind of high-falutin’ metaphor for the current political climate between those of Eastern descent interacting with those of Western descent.
Or maybe he just wanted to fuck her.
Probably because she is the one complaining about not getting what she wanted.
Maybe I am old, but I have never asked a woman over to my place and first discussed if I was inviting her over to have sex. Is that something that’s common these days?
Just so we’re clear, that’s exactly what I thought after reading your comment. When you blatantly misinterpret someone, it’s insulting. I think your typing fingers get ahead of your thoughts sometimes.
I typed out a very reasonable “what men can learn and what women can learn” post. Anyone can see that both parties should have communicated better.
I’ve been totally someone of let much every woman involved in this thread… but not this one.
Hey story is bullshit. Not in that it’s untrue, but in that her suggestion that Aziz is some kind of monster is, by her own description, untrue.
If you are hooking up by a casual encounter site or application… it’s implied. If you are doing what these two are doing, a little more organic than that, it’s a little more murky. The problem is, we’re demanding she be clear but he’s allowed to do… whatever. That’s a double standard.
You think this is easy for me? Am I the only woman in this topic. Am I the only woman in most topics around here. It’s challenging trying to voice an opinion but not be a token, not be like representative of my entire sex, of my entire race… but I feel there is a POV I have that’ different based on who and what I am so I try to voice it.
I’m not perfect, but I certainly don’t go out of my way to be an ass because I see things differently. Hell this topic, Aziz, began with someone suggesting that sometimes men and women view things differently, maybe not assume I “blatantly misinterpret” it every time that happens.
I’m approaching this with a different perception than you are. My default is different, and that doesn’t mean I am just trying to do something just to conflict.
Is this about bringing up legal charges or sexual assault or is this about talking about how terrible situations can come about and how someone can be a douche.