The Fall of Harvey Weinstein

What on earth are you even going on about, Nesrie? Nothing you wrote makes any sense as a reply to me.

We agree about all that. We already established this.

I get why so many people around here end up saying, “I’m done trying to talk with you.”

As someone who has a great deal of difficulty reading non-verbal cues in the moment, I’m feeling increasingly sure about my decision to forego romantic relationships altogether.

Ha! Now imagine you’re famous.

Well my experience is quite different, different decades entirely. I grew up in the internet is kind of there and became an adult in the internet is becoming something huge age. Going over to a guys house to hang-out was perfectly normal, as was playing games with them, watching TV, whatever.

There was never a situation where sex was sprung on me, and before each act, if you were, there was usually just a little check, a very casual not at all weird “are you sure”… and that was that. The very idea that someone would continue to kiss me while I turn my head or turn “cold” as she said is just… appalling. Unless they’re having different kinds of sex, I don’t know how you can’t feel that. Hell, even as you get older and a slight twist results in that gosh are you okay moment it’s just…it’s just obvious.

I imagine considerate men are going to know what’s going on with their partner. Inconsiderate men may remain clueless. I guess I haven’t dealt with completely selfish lovers who can’t really tell if someone is into them.

You are describing how you should treat someone you care about.

But while it’s nice when two people in a sexual relationship care about each other, it’s never really been a requirement.

Certainly with people with as few internal resources as are coming out of the woodwork now, anyway.

This movement is definitely beginning to give off the unpleasant aroma of a moral panic.

They are describing how you should treat another human being. Period.

Jameela’s article on this is actually pretty good:

https://twitter.com/jameelajamil/status/953031084567965696

I find the blithe dismissal of nonverbal messaging really disturbing. Similarly, the idea that because she didn’t say ‘no’ loudly or often enough he’s allowed to try whatever he likes.

Is this really how you guys experience intimacy? Without attention or regard for what the other person is feeling?

Man, this thread is on fire!

I get what Nesrie is saying, and I want to acknowledge that she’s one of the few female voices on the forum. I appreciate her viewpoint.

That being said, I don’t think that the Anzari story is really worth debating anymore. There are so many terrible, legitimate stories out there from the #metoo movement, I think this distracts from it.

But he’s not. Everyone is saying he was too pushy and that he shouldn’t have done that. I have no doubt he’s feeling the same way.

I also think that if she was getting to a place where she was being emotionally hurt, then she should have stepped up her protestations or taken stronger action to end the date. Common sense?

Not really. There are plenty of situations where you are not expected to show deference to the most vulnerable. Like, pretty much any competition or rivalry.

I mean, it would be a nicer world if everyone treated everyone else like they would their best friend. But that’s not realistic.

And do you consider two people dating to be in a competition, or rivalry, situation? Or are you just trying to deflect?

So that means we’re off the hook and can exploit other people’s weaknesses as long as we don’t care about them?

That’s really good. Thank you.

Thank you. This is not an easy place to go to each day, and I admit I have my oddities. That’s probably why I am here and not other places to begin with. I appreciate you saying what you do, especially since you and I go at it fairly often. I try not to take any particular topic or response and hold it over someone, at least for not very long.

I have shared more on this site more about myself than any other site in my life, outside local friends and family stuff. Sometimes I question the wisdom with that and the exposure and hurt that comes with it, but more often than not, I feel I made the right choice years ago when I just started… opening up.

Why can’t this also be about why didn’t she speak up? It’s easy to build an argument when you get to set the ground rules. And yes, I’m quoting your quote, not you.

When is this moment? What kind of special care should be used? I have been in intimate situations with women and never once has a woman attempted to vocalize to me that she is worried about my concerns, that she is worried about my comfort, that she wants me to feel protected. Was I somehow being violated because the woman I was with didn’t express these concerns toward me?

Simone de Beauvoir said that men are sexually aggressive and women are sexually manipulative. I think there’s a lot of truth in that. When it comes to a point that a man is likely to make a pass, I think most women understand that they need to be clear that they are not interested. I still wonder why this young woman put up with what she put up with. Some men are going to be clueless and continue to press for sex.

Perhaps if Ansari hadn’t been a celebrity, the woman would have stopped it and left. I’m not omniscient so of course I don’t know. Maybe she built up this date in her mind and was reluctant to abandon it, and it spiraled down the drain from there?

That’s nice to hear, but it’s definitely not the sense I get from the thread so far. There’s been a lot more criticism of the woman’s actions than Ansari’s.

From the account we have, she didn’t do anything wrong. If (as you say) we all agree that Ansari did act inappropriately, then a lot of this reads like classic victim-blaming.

Let me put it this way. There are some aspects of contemporary “hook-up culture” that are somewhat off-putting to older generations. One of them is an intentional indifference to the long-term needs of sexual partners. Another is a kind of competitive bedpost-notching.

It’s not my cup of tea. But as long as everyone who participates is clear about what is going on, I won’t judge.

We do go at it fairly often, but I toast your health and good fortune with the last of the excellent bourbon I got in the QT3 gift exchange.

In the end we are all brothers and sisters.

Had I been in Ansari’s position, I can’t honestly say I would have picked up on any of her signals as described. Best to just stay away.

Because literally every discussion about a woman experiencing sexual violation at some point asks “why didn’t she do anything?” and it’s fucking tiresome?

Were you uncomfortable? Were you feeling vulnerable?

That’s certainly the way society has conditioned us to behave. But it doesn’t have to be that way. It shouldn’t be that way, if you ask me.

I’m going to have to participate in that one year. I don’t do gifting giving… casually. I lost my job just after starting with this site and didn’t have money or resources for… years, now that I have that, I just don’t think I can do it right. Like I look for near perfect gifts for Christmas almost all year. I’m afraid I’d literally mess it up and give a crappy gift, be “that” person no one wants a gift from.