The Fall of Harvey Weinstein

Politics and religion
2344

I realize what I’m about to say is entirely Not The Point of all this, but I’ve been wondering with cynical fascination what would happen in the case when accusations hit a star connected to one of the major ongoing blockbuster franchises like Marvel or Star Wars. And maybe this still isn’t it, at the moment it sounds like something from the 80s, and Michael Douglas is just at the fringes of the Marvel Universe with his Ant-Man involvement. Maybe he slides by. But I wonder what it’s like inside those studios with multi-movie franchises and sprawling casts. I picture entire office wings of lawyers, their own investigators, producers, agents, making contingency plans for everything. What do they already know and have decided they can live with, who will they defend to what extent, who’s replaceable and how? Like what if some Kevin-Spacey-level stuff came out right now about Robert Downey Jr., or Adam Driver, or Henry Cavill? And what are they doing differently as they plan out future franchises? What a kind of contingency plans and contract clauses are being included from the start on big stuff like that for the future?

Again, I realize this is a rather cynical tangent to the issues at hand, but I can’t help being curious about what this is changing behind the scenes.

2345

Still complimenting my additions to our E.T. imitation, his voice lowered at least half an octave. I peered at him and saw he’d inserted both hands into his unzipped pants. I realized to my horror that he was rubbing his private parts. Within seconds his voice cracked and it appeared to me he’d had an orgasm.

Is this how women imagine that men masturbate? With our dick in our pant leg and somehow we have both hands on it? I never thought of it as some kind of secret that only one gender would know about.

I think we’ve officially hit the crazy part of #MeToo when this gets published instead of someone having the guts to explain to this woman that what she’s suggesting is physically virtually impossible.

2346

Anything is possible.

romancing-the-stone-mudslide

2348

I’m pretty sure there are some wild and awful stories that could come out of when RDJ was an alcoholic and drug abuser in and out of rehab. I guess he’d get a pass though.

2349

There are better sources for this on the academic side, but they touch on it here.

However, the federal legal definition of sexual harassment does not always turn on whether the accused is the employer or even a workplace superior, according to the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. “Sexual harassment can occur in a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to the following,” the EEOC notes on its website: “The harasser can be the victim’s supervisor, an agent of the employer, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or a non-employee.”

In addition, sexual harassment as defined under California law is construed more broadly than under federal law.

“I am deeply apologetic that I have wronged my wife,” Scoble continued in the blog post. “I apologize to women in general that I could have been a better man and husband. Every act of infidelity, every time I have watched an adult video online, every time I have made an inappropriate joke, or laughed at one, I have wronged women.”

“Just wrong”
FURTHER READING
Ex-Uber engineer alleges sexual harassment, CEO reacts by promising investigation
However, law experts that Ars contacted largely say that Scoble is mistaken.
Joanna Grossman, a law professor at Southern Methodist University who has written extensively on this issue, told Ars that Scoble’s understanding of the law is “just wrong… Power in general isn’t what matters,” she said. “There is no requirement that the harasser have power or any specific relationship with the person.”

And there is a reason i keep bringing up CA specifically.

2350

There are two types of sexual harassment.

“Quid pro quo” involves a threat of loss of employment or housing from a person making a sexual advance.

“Hostile work environment” is any sort of sexual behavior between employees that makes it uncomfortable to work there. In California employers have fewer defenses than in other states, but these same two categories apply.

I don’t think either of these apply to Aziz and Grace.

Sexual assault is something else entirely: any sort of unwanted physical contact of a sexual nature. Unlike sexual harassment, it’s a criminal not a civil matter. That means the standard of evidence is higher, and I suspect that a DA would be unlikely to prosecute Aziz based on what we’ve read.

2351

This is a terrific lecture on the complicated sexual dance we play.

I think the three most interesting thing is that in He said/she said both parties can say the opposite and neither party is lying because of mis-remembering. Most, signal that both sexes send are deliberately ambiguous to protect peoples egos. Finally, her big brother give some good advice, if you are in enclosed space with a male, he is thinking about putting his penis in your vagina!

2352

This wasn’t really in response to Aziz, so much as a response to the general idea that you have to have power over someone in the literal sense for it to take place.

2353

Just to be contrary, would physical contact mean, exactly, actual contact?

Because, I imagine one could harass by talking about sex, e.g. using words like "i’d like to fuck your cute little ass,2 and be quite harasing indeed, without touching, without even exposing oneself.

Hell, in theory just staring lasciviously could be a form of harassment, e.g. staring and following someone around a club.

Seriously uncool behaviour, imho surely harassment? No physical contact.

Are there any lawyers about? I’m very curious what the law states is harassment.

I hate to simplify my own gender, but, speaking from experience, and knowing the men that I do, “enclosed space” is not a requirement.

Neither is being alone with a woman.

2354

The Aziz situation, I don’t see how we’re ever going to reach a point where “People want different things from each other” is going to be fixed. And there will always be people willing to go up to the line of what’s allowed to get what they want.

Still, maybe this will lead to better results in the future, there are people talking about it all around the world…

2355

I still enjoy reading Andrew Sullivan’s take on things. And I think he’s got a point that if you refuse to talk about the difference between the genders, it will lead to more young men getting that view from Alt-Right sources.

2356

I’ve been saying that for a long time - and actually it’s the source of many a very heated, angry argument where the offense taken by the listener invalidates by definition the speaker.

To modern young liberals, identity political structured debate depends not on what is being said but who is doing the speaking. “A man tells a woman _____” is by definition an invalid sentence structure, as it’s wrong for a man to tell a woman anything (even if it’s something like “look out!”.) Where the reverse “A woman tells a man _____” is always correct, no matter what the subject matter. What they care about is not what is being said but who is doing the speaking. When white guys tell women ____, in any context, about anything but especially about things regarding sex differences, their first reaction is likely to be reflexive dismissal and disdain of the questioner. In theory the same arguments put forward by a man and a women would be rejected or accepted just on the identity of the speaker.

When many women i’ve spoken to about gender differences being the root of many problems, they just shrug and say, “so what?”. “Why are you telling me this”, they say? “Are you saying women are just going to have to accept being raped because that’s just what men do? Are you saying domestic violence is just part of the human condition? Are women just going to have to take their shoes off and raise rugrats and be happy when their man brings home the bacon every evening?” There is a reflexive disdain by modern feminists that see arguments that desire to explore the nature of gender difference as being nothing more than Trojan Horses for revanchist sexism, about giving ammunition for conservatives to return to the good old days of keeping women in their place.

It also doesn’t help that a lot of modern feminism isn’t based on consistent ideology but something like “contextual emotional intelligence”. Which means things which may seem contradictory from the outside they don’t give a shit about, because the positions they take are to support individuals or groups that have been defined as being oppressed. So in the context of talking to and about transgendered people, gender is of course a social construct. In the context of dealing with #metoo, of course gender is a real thing insofar as it matters.

2357

@Endigm I don’t know who you hang out with or where, but it sounds like a terrible place. You should try the Real World, where nobody actually thinks those things.

Only the most ideological feminists would say that stuff.

You’re also leaving out the stuff that you say to them. I think talking about “the nature of gender difference” can have a wide range of topics, from acceptable to WTF. See the Google memo guy for one example of WTF.

2358

People do in fact think those things.

2359

Yea, that’s a good point. I mean i pretty much say the same things i say here, just far more verbally (i.e., concise, less wordy). Most of the time i try to listen and not “tell” you know. I have been told by at least one woman i’m the most ‘feminist guy she knows’ - which i counter by saying talk is cheap and just because i say shit doesn’t mean shit. I try to do the right thing and basically just bump a conversation not steer it, but who can say? But i need to be wordy and have been accused of not making sense either unless i have a chance to spell it all out ( like i can do quickly by typing) which often hurts my arguments. Verbal debates often take so many things as assumptions it’s much harder to steer away from the preconceived positions.

But when i say things like the reason 13 year old boys run around hitting each other is probably because of they’re getting 20x the testosterone of a 10 year old - this very example i’ve used many times before, which is essentially the argument that Andrew Sullivan makes above and why i dropped in to comment - you’d be surprised at the variety of responses you’ll get.

2360

Go to Portland around 30th & Division and ask the hipsters there what they think. The real world can actually be a pretty terrible place.

2361

Unwanted physical contact is sexual assault, a crime. The offender can be arrested and go to jail. Sexual exhibition (exposing oneself) is also a crime.

Uncomfortable sexual banter that results in a hostile work environment is sexual harassment. The company can be sued and/or fined. The offender may be disciplined by the company, but won’t be arrested.

Uncomfortable sexual banter that is unrelated to the workplace (eg random catcalls at a nightclub or while walking down the street) is obnoxious and might result in social shaming, but it is not illegal.

2362

Does anyone really care what hipsters think?

2363

Thankyou.

I absolutely do if it involved the real world, an #metoo can’t be ignored or sidelinbed, so yes I care what their contribution to this is.

Ditto the feminists, of all stripes.

And eyah, i’ve met a few people like what Enidigm describes. There is quite obviously a set of double standards regarding what men can and can’t say or do.

It exists for women too, but for some reason people feel they can’t talk about the hypocrisy directed at men.

Here’s a pertinent to the #metoo example:

men are expected to lead, to take the risk of rejection, and advance the encounter, so “sweep women off their feet” etc, and women are expected to put up some resistance. That’s part of the game, part of seduction.

Now it’s a dangerous line and could see you being done under the #metoo unbrella.

Tangenially, i wonder if alot of this is actually cultural. #Metoo has had plenty of time to spread but here in Spain, or at least where I am, noone has mentioned it like ever. I’m the one that’s brought it up in conversation…

I can’t help but feel that maybe, just maybe, Americans and brits are just sexually repressed.

I mean, not to throw fuel on the fire, but this Aziz thing sounds so much like buyers remorse on her part.

like to protect her ego and social standing, she needs to cast herself as the victim.

Ofcourse my views are probably as warped as the very people I’m accusing here!

2364

I might be being stupid, but how is transgendered people not a refutation of gender being 100% a social construct? You’re born as a male or female sex, you’re treated as such as your whole life, but somehow gender dysphoria has been socially constructed into you, but not the majority of your cisgendered peers?

Someone help me out here.