Sharpe
4231
No, he did not. Apparently he just went quiet for a while and now is moaning to various media outlets about being treated unfairly and wishing he had not resigned. I was a huge fan of his (I still think his “Supply Side Jesus” bit is the funniest political comedy bit ever), but I don’t think what he’s doing is the right way to get back into politics.
Nesrie
4232
Yeah.
See I think the problem isn’t so much rehabilitation problem so much is so far, the ones that don’t wind up with their asses in jail or prison or just deep in some endless round of court messes, they see rehabilitation as just going back to what they’re doing before. I got slapped. I went down, and now they want to go back… like nothing happened.
Rehabilitation requires work. It’s up to them to prove they have changed, to prove they did the work.
It is not realistic to expect everyone to just pretend like it never happened and move on. Work is not 3 months of thinking about it, or wishing someone else hadn’t done something to you. Rehabilitation is longer term effort. It’s about what you did, not what everyone else did, and yes you can come back but two years wishing you hadn’t resigned and regretting there was actual proof.
And yes, he is being held to a higher standard, due to his party because Democrats have higher standards, and because he was a member of Congress, a role model, someone women should be able to come to, trust, talk to and he failed in that duty. It’s a role with a higher standard than many other roles, and those other roles he can probably still do.
I seriously doubt he’s being chased out of restaurants like Weinstein was… he just can’t go back with simply asking for a do-over.
Matt_W
4233
She wasn’t a member of the military. She was a model and journalist and during that USO tour, she was an actor in various skits. One of those skits had exactly that shot in it–Franken played a creepy doctor who suggested he should do a breast exam on her. The skits were all ribald, as USO skits tended to be. The picture was inappropriate, but it was a spur of the moment thing “Hey Franken, pose!” And every other detail she related about his conduct during the tour is contradicted by every other person on the tour.
This is, by every account of everyone who ever knew him, worked for him, or worked with him, not characteristic of his behavior or intentions. He has done thousands and thousands of photo ops, and you have two reports of him being grabby. It’s entirely possible he actually did just misplace his hands. It really does happen.
I’ve never seen anything to make me believe that Franken wasn’t railroaded. He was a trophy that the right-wing press bagged, and his resignation cheapens the whole #metoo movement.
Nesrie
4234
He had several women come forward and say he grabbed their asses and their breasts, kissed them without asking, many of which also have pictures. He claimed he was ashamed and disgusted with himself, admitted his guilt yet somehow you want to claim these things didn’t happen.
Every woman should be respected, whether she is a soldier or not. And that was a service member event, completely inappropriate. There is no excuse for it. None. Not okay. Don’t do it. Period.
MeToo was not created just to address rape. Sexual harassment and inappropriate sexual behavior towards women needs to stop… yesterday. It does not cheapen Metoo whatsoever. It’s crazy to think otherwise because in order to do so you basically make MeToo a police replacement instead of what it actually is. Groping, grabbing, forcefully kissing, being a disgusting pig toward women in professional environments, joking, touching, toying with, flirting don’t fucking do it in a professional environment. Women do not lose their right to complain about sexual harassment off stage simply because they are objectified onstage. Nothing HE said before and nothing in this piece actually refutes his confirmed behaviors. This guy was not taken down by a single moment nor by events he didn’t also confirm.
Sexism takes many forms, and it has no place within Democratic leadership. He’s done.
So once again, before you try to claim MeToo is cheapened by something, actually try to understand what it is in the first place.
I gave Franken the benefit of the doubt, until he went pass my 3 strikes rule. (3 credible accusers you’re out)
The New Yorker, article doesn’t change two facts. 1/2 dozen women came forth and accused him of acting inappropriately, He was a US senator, one of the most powerful position in the country and we should demand higher ethical standards of our leaders.
Matt_W
4236
All but two of these women came forward anonymously, and none of the stories was ever independently corroborated. One of the non-anonymous women said his offence was that he gave her a side hug during a photo op. Franken begged for an investigation, but none ever happened.
He apologized for the photo with Tweeden, which he acknowledged was inappropriate. He didn’t even recall any of the other events, but apologized for any discomfort he’d inadvertently caused.
Tweeden spent weeks honing her story with the assistance of right-wing TV hosts before dropping it. It was never fact checked nor was the Senator sought for comment prior to the story’s release, though Hannity and others had advance notice. And many of the details of her story have since been invalidated.
I agree with all of this. My mental check when evaluating this stuff in the news is to ask “would I be in jeopardy of being fired if I did this.” Louis CK whipped his dick out and jerked off in front of women. Yep, I’d be fired. I liked his comedy, but I won’t watch him ever again. Franken, when he was working as a comedian on a comedy tour, did a split second photo op that aped a skit he’d already done multiple times with that person. The context makes it–still inappropriate–but also pretty innocuous.
#metoo has always been vulnerable to men’s claims that innocent men might have it used against them, even though this rarely happens. The safeguard against this vulnerability has always been due process. Franken was never afforded any. He was deliberately and carefully brought down by right-wing propagandists who’d had him in their sights for years.
There are more than two reports. Of them, Leeann Tweeden alleged more than the fake grope photo. Lindsey Menz and Stephanie Kemplin alleged groping during photo ops. Four more women have made similar allegations, though they did so under the condition of anonymity.
Why did he quit?
Matt_W
4238
And almost every one of her other allegations is either factually incorrect or contradicted by everyone else who was there.
Because his colleagues demanded his resignation.
Because his fellow Democrats pushed him out as this was in the middle of the Roy Moore situation and they were worried about being labelled as hypocrites and losing that election. Which was the Republican plan, of course. The timing was not a coincidence.
I mean, seriously, she went on Hannity near immediately. I’m usually on board the “assume the accuser is telling the truth” line of thought, but it’s Hannity. You’re not going there to get the facts out, you’re going there to spin a story.
If you were innocent of all these charges, would you have apologized for them and quit? It’s…hard to see that.
They had zero power to push him out.
Matt_W
4241
Yeah I would have. My first instinct would have been to get out of the public eye as quickly as possible. And given that nearly the entire Democratic caucus was publicly calling on him to resign, it’s hard to see how I wouldn’t do that. But, I mean, you’re right. Clearly the right thing to do was just be belligerent and weather it. He’d still be a Senator and no one would care about it. Joe Biden is still stumping.
Politically, this was supposed to give Democrats the moral high ground or something. And yet, we can’t seem to muster the indignation to even censure a President who has more non-anonymous accusers of harassment and assault than I can count on my fingers and toes, and who is on tape admitting assault.
This is true, and you know I’ve been arguing for impeachment proceedings for a long time here, but it doesn’t have anything to do with Franken. It’s certainly not his accusers’ fault that the House leadership is so gun-shy.
It’s possible he decided at the time to fall on his sword for the greater good (avoiding accusations of Dem hypocrisy re: sexual assault/harassment allegations, avoiding a long drawn out battle, etc.) and then, on further reflection, while moping around his cavernous home in his slippers, regretted the move.
…or maybe he just saw the whole Ralph Northam saga unfold and thought, “Jesus Christ… that guy is still in office? I shoulda stuck it out.”
Actually, three other women came forward on the record, Lindsay Menz, Stephanie Kemplin, Tina Dupuy and 4 anonymously. As I said earlier in the thread the math behind 3 strikes rule is simple.
Let’s assume that men and women are equally likely to lie (in reality I think men are far more like to lie in this situation.) Even if you want to discount Leanne Tweed as member of the vast right-wing conspiracy, that still leaves the odds that all three other women are lying at 1 in 8, or 87.5% that one of them is telling the truth. That’s close enough to the beyond a reasonable doubt standard for me to say, nope he shouldn’t be a US senator.
Franken resigned. He had the option of not resigning and taking things to an ethics committee hearing—or just staying in office until the next election. He was afforded due process. If he were impeached—which is I suppose the senatorial equivalent of being fired—without a hearing then there would be a due process argument.
“People were mean to me and my colleagues thought I was politically radioactive” is not a denial of due process.
Matt_W
4246
Exactly. Franken’s resignation proved his guilt in precisely the same way that Kavanaugh’s belligerence proved his innocence.
The one need not bear any relation to the other. I know why Kavanaugh would be belligerent while guilty, but I don’t know why Franken would resign while innocent. That’s because guilt isn’t like innocence. Guilty people have a different motivation than innocent people do.
Matt_W
4248
Some of the same reasons innocent people accept plea deals every day? He thought remaining in office would hurt the party? He felt that he couldn’t do his job under siege? Actually we don’t have to guess--he explained it:
Serving in the United States Senate has been the great honor of my life. I know in my heart that nothing I have done as a Senator – nothing – has brought dishonor on this institution. And I am confident that the Ethics Committee would agree.
Nevertheless, today I am announcing that, in the coming weeks, I will be resigning as a member of the United States Senate.
. . .
But this decision is not about me. It’s about the people of Minnesota. And it’s become clear that I can’t both pursue the Ethics Committee process and, at the same time, remain an effective Senator for them.
. . .
Minnesotans deserve a Senator who can focus with all her energy on addressing the challenges they face every day.
Well, he didn’t resign in order to avoid being ousted. It’s more or less the same result, and anyway he basically couldn’t be ousted. So the plea deal analogy doesn’t really work, because he wasn’t bargaining for lesser punishment.
Also, too: Statements people make when resigning under pressure are nearly always self-serving. Few people say I’m resigning because I did that shit.
That is a non sequitur. I didn’t say anything about Franken’s guilt or innocence being confirmed. He didn’t avail himself of due process and instead resigned, and that is on him.
Of the two of us, your position is the one closer to saying we should believe that Kavanaugh did nothing wrong, given that his accuser was a political opponent. So maybe stay away from that point going forward.
