No worries!
I think there is a double standard occurring. I’m just going to talk in hypothetical situations rather than any specific cases.
Some up and coming starlet is victim to some kind of inappropriate behavior from someone powerful in her industry. She is afraid to speak out because it may damage her career or worse blackball her. What about the predators future victims?
By keeping quiet she’s putting other colleagues at risk. I just find it ironic that some “victims” waited decades before blowing the whistle and the popular opinion is that they are “brave” for coming forward.
Brave in what way exactly?
That they waited for a decade before saying anything allowing for 10s (100s?) more victims?
Brave that by keeping silent they enjoyed a career in Hollywood before coming forward?
I was discussing this issue with a friend of mine the other day and he made a comment that I thought was fitting. This topic seems to promote virtue signaling (“the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one’s good character or the moral correctness of one’s position on a particular issue”).
#MeToo has become McCarthyism - where if your name is in the papers and linked with any kind of sexual misconduct then buddy, you’d better batten down the hatches. There is already process in place to deal with these incidents and they are far better suited to resolving them than Twitter.
There are shades of gray to this whole thing and it irks me when the popular opinion seems to be that it’s all black and white (villains and victims).
This is complete and utter bullshit. Do you even know what McCarthyism was actually about? This isn’t the thought police here. These men are victimizing women while being in a position of power, and many of their actions would actually be outright illegal today. There is no shades of gray here. These men are predators, pretty much every single one that has been called out has a history, decades of not just inappropriate behavior but vile and sometimes outright illegal behavior.
You keep trying to pretzel the victims to fit your narrative. Your narrative is at the top of the list of why women don’t say these things when they happen.
I was using the term McCarthyism in a broader sense:
“McCarthyism has taken on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations”
#MeToo - “reckless, unsubstantiated accusations”
And you’re concern trolling. The answer to “why didn’t you tell me this a long time ago?” is never “…so let’s never talk about it.”
The correct answer is “how do we make sure we don’t have to wait so long next time?”
Which story is unsubstantiated?. Give me an example. Show me where someone was accused, lost their jobs, who didn’t confess or more data didn’t come out months later that is exactly what was said that was happening. There is no a witch hunt here, and there is no secret thought police here. If you want to sit a desk and drool over your co-workers in this country and you don’t DO anything, you’re going to be fine. If your’e a predator, your hunting grounds just became a hell of a lot more perilous, and that’s what should happen.
And don’t use this Keillor guy. They sat on that for a month, and so far the narrative has only been his.
It’s been reported that women have been warning each other about many of these men, not just in public. What’s happening now is that these warnings, which were previously done on “hidden” networks are coming out in the light.
I find it ironic that you expect the victims to come forward, yet insist on calling them “victims”. Do you not see that it’s that kind of attitude that keeps people from coming forward? And it’s that very kind of attitude that makes them brave for coming forward now, no matter how many years since the event.
“victims”…Jesus fucking Christ. What’s with the quotes there, draxen?
Lots of people seemed to have a problem with the quotes, so I’ll attempt to clarify :)
I only meant that in some cases (not all cases obviously) the lines between victim and villain can be blurred.
For example:
I’m a young starlet and some creepy powerful guy asks me to his hotel room at night. He makes sexual advances towards me but does not restrain me physically in any way. However if I comply with his wishes and keep my mouth shut then perhaps he’ll use his influence to make me a star. So I decide to go along with his disgusting advances for the sake of my career. I now become complicit in this affair. I know the chances of it occurring to others is high but I maintain my silence for financial wealth.
What you are describing surely happens a lot, but what these men have been accused of, quite credibly, is unwanted sexual advances even when explicitly told “no”, sexual assault, and rape.
That said, someone in a position of power offering to trade career favours for sexual favours is still completely wrong, whether those offers are accepted or not.
Hey Draxen, how big are you? You sound awful manly and cool, able to fight off aggressors and sexual predators with a quick visit to HR and your fantastic job prospects. Also your willingness to stand up for future victims by taking one for the team. I need guys like that working for me.
Why don’t you swing by my office for a quick interview. I have a lock on my door so we can have some private time together.
I expected it would become a witchhunt very quickly but I’m happy to admit that I was wrong. I haven’t seen any weird agendas being pushed. So far it’s all just been about common decency and I don’t see how anyone can complain about it.
If only we all had a cup of tea. (Contains no teabag analogies)
If you’re so deep into the culture wars that you find yourself defending Harvey Weinstein, are you any better than the SJWs you complain about? Do truth and justice matter to you anymore? Is this the kind of person you want to be?
You imply this is as simple as ordering a different entree off the menu. Many people are more or less paycheck to paycheck. You can’t miss too many mortgage payments before the bank forecloses. It’s not like you quit a job and start next week at the new job. Sometimes you can go months between jobs. Giving up your income is never an easy decision. So when you ask what is more important in this instance, quite often the answer could be keeping food on the table, the lights turned on, and the mortgage or rent paid. Fear is a powerful motivator.
draxen your argument comes across as being “forget about the importance of consent, because sometimes people will lie about it”.
I’m not defending Harvey Weinstein. It seems from overwhelming accounts that he’s a sexual predator. I’ve not defended anyone. However, he’s not yet been charged with any crime as far as I know?
I’ve not made any argument against consent - other than to post a video that’s a parody of the first. Although I believe proof of consent is very difficult.
My position is thus:
- Sexual assault (of any form) is bad
- Trial by media through public shaming is bad
- These issues are shades of gray rather than black and white
The problem with #MeToo / trial by media / public shaming is that it’s a big hammer. What’s the old saying, “When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail”.
Certainly. And yet consent is still super important, a lesson seemingly not learned by many people.
Should those who have suffered sexual assault or been coerced into sexual situations come forward, or not?
I thought this article about false accusations of rape was interesting. The writer says that accusations are almost always pushed forward when the accuser is 1) trying to dodge serious trouble with parents like “I stayed out too late and broke curfew” 2) they have a record of making other outlandish claims 3) they are trying to defraud some institution or somebody, and 4) revenge… but usually for weird stuff like “the drugs he sold me sucked” — almost never revenge for getting dumped or getting back at former lovers.
When a woman says she’s been brutally raped by seven men at a public party on a bed of broken glass, as the UVA accuser did, and when that woman has a history of strange lies, as the UVA accuser also did, there’s nothing wrong with being skeptical. But if a woman without any history of dramatic falsehoods says she went home with a man and, after they’d kissed a while consensually, he held her down and forced her into sex—in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, you can just assume it’s true. This is not because of any political dictum like “Believe women.” It’s because this story looks exactly like tens of thousands of date rapes that happen every year, and nothing at all like a false rape accusation.