The Fall of Harvey Weinstein

[SlyFrog]

@BloodyBattleBrain

There’s a real danger here that #metoo will lead to a witchhunt and heavy shaming of what are perfectly normal male behaviours, which mean showing interest in a lady.

This whole “but how will we distinguish between flirting and harassment thing” drives me nuts, because it is such a red herring, at least for the current news stories.

None of the stories out there even remotely resemble ordinary flirting or courtship, where a man is trying to get a woman interested in him, or see if she is interested. None of them involve a man touching a woman on the arm, asking her for a drink, trying to kiss her, etc., being rebuffed, and then going away.

These people are masturbating in front of women they barely know. With no lead up. With no history whatsoever that would even remotely suggest the woman would consent to that.

When is the last time you approached a woman for purposes of courtship or flirting by whipping out your fucking dick and beating off in front of her? When is the last time you literally grabbed the ass of a woman you just met, and did not know or barely knew?

None of those things resemble flirting or courtship. Not in the slightest. It’s really not hard. It’s not awkward flirting or courtship being confused with harassment.

Awkward flirting consists, at worst, of something like going in for a kiss when you’ve misread the signals, being told she’s not interested or being pushed away, and then apologizing and saying, “I’m sorry, I really misread that, I thought you were interested.”

None of these things are that. To suggest that somehow the two are being confused is naive at the best, and intentional dissembling at the worst.

Honestly, even in the workplace, if you read sexual harassment legal cases, they are never the “innocent flirting” that people want to make them out to be. As big a shibboleth as it is to the right, workplaces really don’t fire someone for inadvertently touching a woman on the arm. The cases that I have seen (and I’m talking legal cases here) are, without exception, ridiculous. Repeated advances in the face of the woman asking the man to stop. Outrageous behavior, like direct sexual contact or displays, with women who in no way asked or consented to such things (we’re not talking about a single awkward attempt to kiss, we’re talking about grabbing breasts, etc.).

The notion that men will somehow be unable to flirt if these #metoo campaigns continue is ridiculous. The campaigns also will not wake up the harassers, rapists, etc., because they’re scum, and generally cannot be persuaded. What the campaigns will hopefully do is provide some additional protection to beleaguered women, and wake up non-abusive men to the environment women have to work and live in.

[milo]

Well, it’s not quite that simple. As a manager, I am responsible for dealing with sexual misconduct between employees who report to me anytime it occurs in my presence, even if it occurs after hours and off site.

[Telefrog]

[Miguk]

@SlyFrog

These people are masturbating in front of women they barely know.

So now I can’t even show my affection to a potted plant if some feminazi happens to be walking by? PC culture has gone way too far.

[None]

You’re not beating around the bush, are you?

[JonRowe]

I came in here to post that.

Nothing good ever happens in a van!!!

[Timex]

[ShivaX]

@Shimarenda

That was the willing part. My point was that even though she was a willing partner, we did not engage in such activities at work. The idea that people engage in such activities at work with unwilling people is astounding to me.

I mean, we engaged in things at work, though nothing overly crazy, but doing that with the cute girls on my team would’ve been beyond my ability to even imagine, especially if she wasn’t willing or doing anything short of instigating, if I’m honest.

One girl kissed me on the floor, I guess, but it was a quick goofy peck and we were close at the time. It would never have occurred to me to grab her ass at work and I probably could’ve gotten away with it, and I knew I probably could’ve gotten away with it. I mean this girl had literally jumped on top of me in my bed at one point. It still never crossed my mind. I think some people are just wired wrong.

[Gordon_Cameron]

Nothing makes me feel older and more out of touch than SNL pop song parodies, I think. They always make me think “is this what music sounds like nowadays?”

#getoffmylawn
#sinatraforever
#amadeus1763europeantour

[Gordon_Cameron]

Opinion | Billy Bush: Yes, Donald Trump, You Said That

[None]

Even if he did say those things, wasn’t he just reading what was in one of Hillary’s emails? That’s the real story here.

[Gordon_Cameron]

Ah, the innocent. You think it ends with Hillary’s emails? That’s just the beginning. We’re through the looking glass here, people.

[Strollen]

@Shimarenda

I met my wife at work. We dated for 5 years and were married for 14 years before she retired (we’re counting the days until I can retire also). Obviously, she is a willing partner, but in all that time, I never attempted sexual contact at work. Work is work; after work is not work. It’s really that simple.

I didn’t say anything about doing this stuff at work. I don’t think is appropriate to have sex at the office (albeit probably a lot of fun) even if everybody is willing. You should treat co-workers as co-workers no matter where they are unless both parties are willing. I good amount of the harassment stuff we’ve seen is guy, meets young girl, out of the office, and seems to think the rules no longer apply.

He was wrong then, and men are finally learning there are consequences for doing bad things. Now maybe Garrison Keillor will be the exception, but so far in every case it is not just one woman who’s come forward but multiple. If only our elected official would take the lesson of private sector, and slink away in shame like they should, I’d characterize #metoo as a complete success.,

[wumpus]

@Miguk

Is this the kind of person you want to be?

This is a good thing to think about, periodically.

[Mark_Asher]

@Strollen

so far in every case it is not just one woman who’s come forward but multiple.

I believe for George Takei it is only one accusation.

[Timex]

@wumpus

This is a good thing to think about, periodically.

Damn straight.

I think that a lot of the problems we’re seeing today wouldn’t be there if more folks were willing to just step back every once in a while, and say, “Is this REALLY the horse I want to hitch my wagon to?”

Many folks just went along with stuff for a while, and started associating with worse and worse stuff… to the degree that now, changing course would require that they admit how fucked up they acted recently. That itself creates a barrier to change.

[CLWheeljack]

@Mark_Asher

I believe for George Takei it is only one accusation.

The Takei case has been relatively quiet. I have no idea what the truth of that matter is, but it would not surprise me if Takei and Spacey are getting relatively less attention an account of being gay. There are undoubtedly some portion of people who (either explicitly or implicitly) believe that “the gays are just promiscuous deviants anyway, and that’s just what you get for turning away from God”, or some such rubbish. I don’t endorse that view of course, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there are people that do.

From a strategic perspective, I think that focusing on women is probably a better approach to take when engaging this issue. There are going to be some old-fashioned sexists that think about this issue purely in terms of “protecting the women”, which is a gross framing, but I think it’s probably a good idea, strategically, to get as many people on board as possible regardless of their ultimate motivations. Let’s all agree to stop the sexual assault first, and we can argue about why later on. I think that any progress made to reduce predatory behavior will eventually help everybody.

[Dan_Theman]

@CLWheeljack

Spacey are getting relatively less attention

I’m pretty sure Spacey’s case exploded the Internet (largely thanks to House of Cards) and now it just seems “resolved” in the public’s eye so people have moved on to the next, although Takei’s hasn’t received as much attention.

[ArmandoPenblade]

I also kinda feel like Terry Crews hasn’t gotten as much positive, helpful, sympathetic attention from the public at large after coming forward with his story and naming the abuser. Who is apparently back at work?

I mean, mind you, places like reddit are gushing with love for Crews; I don’t think he’s, you know, wallowing in solitude or anything, but yeah.

[Nesrie]

Spacey got a lot of attention, a lot of news and internet outrage. Takei’s was a little out of the ordinary though, and my understanding is that might be partly due to the incident taking place at a private party at someone’s house. I’m not sure though.

The biggest cases, the ones that stay in the headlines and get the most outrage, there’s no question what’s going on, and it has nothing to do with sexuality and more to do with quantity and length of time. I am in the camp that says you shouldn’t have to multiple victims before you act, but in the public arena that’s primarily what’s happening today.