Yeah, but the flip side is that if you allow for the oppression of ideas based on such things, you run the risk of actually enabling things like fascism. They will use those same types of fallacious arguments against you.
Maybe, but I donāt think thereās a whole lot of daylight between the ālock her up!ā rally goers and the kinds of folks (regular folks, normal folks, nice to their parents) you would have seen sieg heiling at Nuremberg.
Literal Nazis were not self-created avatars of evil, each personally replicating the thought process that Hitler elucidated in Mein Kampff. Rather, they rode a tribe as far as it would take them, and in the process surrendered their internal moral compasses. That looks awfully familiar to me at the moment. Of course to some extent itās just human nature, but finding out when human nature spins and coalesces into these perfect storms of collective awfulness is the ballgame.
I am not blaming anyone here for anything. And I do think the minority shouldnāt have any burden put on them. And while you can wish for others to forget years of conditioning it is unrealistic to think that it will suddenly disappear because they found outliers to their conditioning. You can hope, I can hope, but we both know that is not how things actually work.
Youāre not wrong in making that point. But consider that people like me, who arenāt necessarily a part of the minority group, are doing the work too. Iām not saying that to get a merit badge or anything, but to say that thereās more support. The pressure is not the same upon, me, by any measurable standard, but it is there.
And thatās why I think trying to maintain relationships with people who have abhorrent views might work better than turning my back. But, again, I allow that I could be wrong. And this isnāt just a philosophical question. It has real-world implications that are devastating.
I donāt know how to reconcile that. We cannot just turn our backs on each other. Because thatās where weāve been headed. And I think it shows in things getting worse over the last two years.
Iād rather tell a bigot I know that I love them, and you know what, I love these people too, and hereās why, then just leave them all to the void.
-xtien
Sure, and when mainstream Democratsā rhetoric starts to resemble Leninās or Maoās, we should all have our Spidey Senses tingling. I donāt think AOCās desire to bring us back to Eisenhower-era income tax levels qualifies, though.
How about this ask. When someone wants some other person to endure what might be a really unpleasant few exchanges that may or may not end with some positive result, that we not treat that engagement by the minority member as some sort of given, a throw away, minor part in this play. Thatās what I am asking for.
Sometimes itās presented, even here, like some sort of well, he doesnāt like these people so what really needs to happen here is those people need to do something to fix it. The entire burden is placed not on the person who is frankly not a decent human being at the moment, itās not on the family, and itās not really on their friends itās on someone else. Thatās not easy role to play. Itās exhausting and not everyone can be an Obama or a Cortez whose role and livelihoods are hoods are based on reaching out. So letās stop treating that component like itās a minor role to play, a throw away. Itās sure as hell is not, and itās a lot of thankless work because for all those fine stories you hear about, you donāt hear about the ones that end poorly because, well who wants to hear that?
Please donāt think thatās what Iām saying, Nesrie. I donāt think itās magical. And I understand, as well as I can, the pressure and pain. Because Iāve seen it and heard it. Itās not the same as experiencing it. Or having to live under it. Or under the threat of it, and all that means. I do realize that. Againā¦no merit badges.
But if Iām in Virginia talking about my friends in California, and saying how awesome they are, and how Iām going to make them the godfathers of my child, and this is why, and then my parents who are against their marriage meet them and the totality of that is, āWell of course they should be able to get married. How dumb were we?ā Isnāt that a good thing?
Isnāt that better than cutting them out of my life and their lives?
Iām not being rhetorical. I am open to being told Iām wrong. I mean that.
-xtien
No member of a minority has the responsibility to make himself ālikedā by a bigot.
I think this is a great result for you and your family. There is potential there, but what if they met and it was disastrous. That experience isā¦ horrific. Itās a risk. You and your friends were willing to take it. Thatās fine, and good for them. I just want people to remember who is taking the biggest risk here. Thatās all.
I cannot keep track how many times Iāve seen comments like they need to reach across the table right here on this message board. It makes sense when you say it, but guess what, itās asked for a lot. Itās a freaking expectation, and thatās on a discussion board with people who generally think about things before they engage.
But like I said, the Nazis arenāt the only ones that started as ideas with broader appeal, and then became monstrous.
The guys in Russia didnāt start out with the goal of stalinism and the murder of tens of millions.
And as I said, when mainstream Democrats start to behave like Bolsheviks, Iāll be right there with you getting freaked out.
This is an excellent point. Spot on. And why I had to approach it all very carefully and be sure my friends were safe with it. It wasnāt something I could have sprung on them. Even then, so many years ago in a much more naive state, I knew I had to do that.
What I can appreciate more about your point than I did then was the risk my two friends were taking, that I could not have understood. They were far more generous than I even realized, because not only were they risking rejection or derision, but they were also carrying with them the history of things I could never understand. Being closeted for so many years. Coming out. Coming out in stages. Dealing with their own family members years before. And now I was asking them to take this risk with my family. To their credit they were patient with my stumbling about, but that patience came at the cost of many years of dealing with similar, and worse, behavior and assumptions.
So youāre right to make this distinction.
-xtien
The survived one of the deadliest mass shootings in an american school, we had a native american drum near us.
Seems legit.
Exactly. It has 2019 GOP and FOX News written all over it.
Sorry, you are right.
Neo-nazis
I mean, they wear the hats too right?
Make of it what you will, but:
And the way you described this situation, because you were making them godfathers, they probably took that risk because you are their family too. Just like youāre willing to do a lot to keep connected with your family, it seems like they were too. Which is great.
Being rejected as a human being to your face is worst than being rejected like that from afarā¦ they both suck. Itās not an experience you just shake off and make a song about. I think because of our political climate weāve managed to downplay other types of risks because weāre so concerned about physical ones.
Back in 1986, Covington Catholic was my high schoolās rival. Being a small school, we werenāt very good at sports, so our chant was āthatās alright, thatās OK, youāre going to work for us someday.ā
Yuck, reminds me of some of my alma mater USCās taunts to UCLA. Along the lines of āyou want fries with that?ā etc. Man I hate that entitled-kid shit :)
Again. Spot on. We used to have holidays together, like Thanksgiving (most important to me), and we would talk about the family you choose as different from the one you happened to be born to, and how important that is.
Sadly, I lost them in that weird friend-custody thing that happens, when you get divorced. But part of that is on me. Iām not good at social stuff. And she was.
-xtien