The GOP is still morally corrupt, even if Discourse breaks

[wavey]

“You’re going to impeach a president for asking for a favor that didn’t happen and – and giving money and it wasn’t withheld?”

[MikeOberly]

She is trash, and deserves to be politically finished.

[ShivaX]

She likely is. The Trumpsters hate her for not worshiping Trump enough and everyone else hates her for not taking a stand against Trump.

This isn’t a fence you can straddle any more. She supported Trump on terrible shit, so she loses with most people for that. But she pushed back against Trump in some places so she’s dead there too.

Of course in 4 years everyone will probably forget and she’ll be in Congress because nothing matters anymore.

Rick Wilson (TheRickWilson)

[ShivaX]

Leslie Proll (LeslieProll)

[Gordon_Cameron]

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude…

[abidingdude]

Allahpundit (allahpundit)

[RichVR]

I believe that ‘conservatism’ as an ideal, as an ideology, is valid. Having said that, who is a true conservative, these days? Name at least one. Preferably several.

Can the ideology exist, outside of actual proponents, other than as a footnote?

[Perky_Goth]

Communism and libertarianism similarly don’t apply to American politics these days. You still want to use those words correctly, don’t you?

On the one hand, I agree that cherry-picking what things mean (capitalism, democracy, conservative, libertarian, socialist, communism, populist, anti-semitism, …) is destroying political discussion. On the other, I’m sick and tired of the left taking the blunt of the distortionist name-calling when defending any remotely progressive policy without being able to strike back at the useful idiots empowering the reactionary wave by pretending we can go back to a few years ago, were everything was so not fine that lead us to this point. At some point, you find centrists are just enablers for really terrible people so they can coast on not believing in anything, just parroting what very serious people say for a paycheck.

[ShivaX]

I believe that ‘conservatism’ as an ideal, as an ideology, is valid. Having said that, who is a true conservative, these days? Name at least one. Preferably several.

Can the ideology exist, outside of actual proponents, other than as a footnote?

There are plenty. Hell, I already listed a bunch earlier in the thread.

But by your logic Communism isn’t an ideology, because no one is actually Communist.
Or Socialist. Or Libertarian. Or anything. Because people aren’t ideologies doesn’t mean ideologies aren’t a thing. You can find almost anyone of any political affiliation who will not follow their ideology to the letter.

Hell, if you find someone who does follow it to the letter, be very suspect of that person. People aren’t that simple.

[RothdaTheTruculent]

Hell, I already listed a bunch earlier in the thread.

Could you help me out? I keep scrolling and scrolling, but I didn’t find the list of actual Conservatives. Sorry if blind.

And I feel like there are actual Socialists that I could point to. Like, to the best that I can tell the DSA and Jacobin are actually socialists. I presume the same is true of Libertarians and Communists, though I know less about them and couldn’t say for certain.

[Carto]

why do you think we shouldn’t express those differences using pre-existing political concepts

Because concepts, political or linguistic, are not static. Their meaning changes each time they get used, based on who’s using them, to what ends, and in which contexts.

What do you think about this assertion? That would help me respond to the rest of your post.

[ShivaX]

Could you help me out? I keep scrolling and scrolling, but I didn’t find the list of actual Conservatives. Sorry if blind.

I can look. It might have been another thread where we had this exact same discussion.
Off the top of my head there are people like Max Boot, Tom Nichols, Rick Wilson and so on.
Of course the second I posted my list, everyone decided that all those people were actually liberals.
But I also recall getting fed up with it and muting people, which honestly I’d love to avoid doing again.

It might have been the election thread. Here is the thing though, you can list “conservative values” or whatever. Like, you can make a list of them. Same for liberals and Communists. Like it’s a fairly set list of things that is wildly available. Yet we’re having a repeat of a discussion where people said Trump supporters = conservatives, followed by conservatives = racists, followed by “no such thing as a conservative anyway”. Like, it’s the same exact discussion.

Here’s an example. We have lots of liberals disagreeing on the details of a wealth tax in another thread. Does that mean no one who disagrees with Warren is a liberal now? Or do you have to be full Bernie Sanders to be liberal? What about Mayor Pete? Is he a “not liberal”? We know he can’t be a conservative because those don’t exist, so he’s some nebulous ideology no one has ever heard of I guess. What about Tulsi Gabbard? She claims to be a liberal, but is hanging out with Tucker Carlson when she isn’t cheering for mass murderers.

These things are a scale and always have been. Trump supporters aren’t really on the conservative scale for the most part. Or at least not on the scale much more than they’re also on the liberal scale. They’re anti-globalism, pro-central planning, pro-governmental power, while also being pro-gun and the like. They’re all over the place because their ideology is literally whatever Donald farts out on a given day.

[HumanTon]

It might have been the election thread. Here is the thing though, you can list “conservative values” or whatever. Like, you can make a list of them. Same for liberals and Communists. Like it’s a fairly set list of things that is wildly available. Yet we’re having a repeat of a discussion where people said Trump supporters = conservatives, followed by conservatives = racists, followed by “no such thing as a conservative anyway”. Like, it’s the same exact discussion.

It might help if you or Tom ever did actually list these supposedly obvious “conservative values”, in which case we might have something to talk about. Including whether any of the millions calling themselves “conservative” in 2019 actually subscribe to those values, except for a powerless handful of aging newspaper columnists.

Trump supporters aren’t really on the conservative scale for the most part. Or at least not on the scale much more than they’re also on the liberal scale. They’re anti-globalism, pro-central planning, pro-governmental power, while also being pro-gun and the like. They’re all over the place because their ideology is literally whatever Donald farts out on a given day.

This is ahistorical, and dangerous. As we’ve seen, those who willfully forget Pat Buchanan and Pat Robertson are destined to repeat them.

[Matt_W]

It might help if you or Tom ever did actually list these supposedly obvious “conservative values”

Tom did provide a pretty good description way upthread:

Do you really need me to explain conservative values? I mean, you couldn’t just Google it? Okay, let’s say I’m a principled conservative. Let’s say I’m in favor of traditional religious values, I’m pro-life, I believe our Judeo-Christian foundation is partly responsible for American exceptionalism, and I’m a proponent of family values like not cheating on your wife to sleep with porn stars. Let’s say I believe in the fundamental importance of free market in our economy, and that I therefore support stuff like privatized health care and school vouchers, and I’m totally not into tariffs or snitty trade wars or croneyism in government contracts. Let’s say I’m opposed to affirmative action, but I’m not a racist, and I’m not interested in courting racists for their political support. Let’s say I believe in tough immigration reform but I also recognize the importance of immigration to this country and I strongly disapprove of inhumane deterrents like holding children hostage. Let’s say I’m hawkish on foreign policy, especially with traditional enemies like Russia and North Korea. Let’s say, perhaps most importantly and in the traditional sense of conservatism, I believe all these things should be expressed according to the rule of law and with the utmost respect for long-standing norms that have largely defined how our government works for centuries. Let’s say I want deregulation and conservative justices on the Supreme Court and lower taxes, but not so badly that I’m willing to tear down the foundations of my country.

[legowarrior]

So, are there any true Scotsmen left in world?

[RichVR]

A dinna ken.

[inactive_user]

True, principled conservatives want their lessers to suffer because of the nobility of it, and probably because they deserve it and also it builds character. Also something something taxescoerciongunsabortion.

Modern American conservatives want the other to suffer because they hate them and want them to suffer.

You’ll forgive me if I deem the distinction not terribly material to the conversation at hand vis-a-vis American democracy in 2019.

[Strollen]

con-serve-atives, people who serve a con(man)

Where is the like button on this site? That’s really perfect.

[RothdaTheTruculent]

I don’t think there’s any need to poke holes in Tom’s definition; reality is already bad enough. If we’re going by the definition of conservatism that Tom gave, the true conservatives in the Republican party turned out to be what, like 10% of the party? While the rest of the party threw themselves at meth and fascism with wild glee. So the true conservatives are maybe 4% of the population, and simply don’t exist at the national level. There’s probably more of them than there are communists in this country, but not by a lot.

[MikeOberly]

Molly McKew (MollyMcKew)