The GOP is still morally corrupt, even if Discourse breaks

[Enidigm]

Bill to decriminalize polygamy earns unanimous approval from Utah Senate...

[inactive_user]

Man. Polygamy is one of those things where in theory, yo, consenting adults? Do what you want!

In practice, horrific abuse of young women.

Being the practical technocrat I generally am, hard pass.

[antlers]

In practice, horrific abuse of young women.

Absolutely this-- and not much fun for young men either, who tend to get kicked out of the communities.

I’m really surprised this sort of bill would get any traction in Utah, which I had thought was still super-protective of its image in this area.

[Nesrie]

There are also a fair amount of abuses in social services involved in there. It’s not like these men are supporting 6 wives and their children without assistance, in many cases.

[scottagibson]

I’m really surprised this sort of bill would get any traction in Utah, which I had thought was still super-protective of its image in this area.

The thing is, polygamy is still (illegally) practiced there, if not actually tacitly tolerated.

[KevinC]

I’m really surprised this sort of bill would get any traction in Utah, which I had thought was still super-protective of its image in this area.

The article talks about it, but it’s due to the illegal nature of it that enables a lot of the abuse. When kids in that situation feel like the police and going to kidnap their family, they don’t want to go to the police when they need help.

And rather than eliminate polygamy, Henderson said, the state’s laws have created “a full-blown human rights crisis” in which victims of abuse and fraud are afraid to come forward, and in which otherwise law-abiding citizens are labeled as criminals.

It’s a little bit like the drug war and drug laws and the debate about decriminalization there. Making possession a felony isn’t stopping people from doing drugs, but it does push the drug trade underground with all the negative consequences there. The bill doesn’t legalize polygamy, but does reduce it from a felony to something that carries a fine instead of prison.

EDIT: To your point, though, Mormons do try to put as much distance between themselves and people who practice polygamy, so the amount of support is a little surprising to me too.

[Enidigm]

This is what happens when your Administration can’t be bothered to actually read books, so they just skim the dust jackets of 1984, The Handmaid’s Tale, The Road and Red Clocks and make it all into policy.

This is why there’s this deep fault line between secularists and religious systems that will never go away as long as those religious systems still exist, why the French Revolution and the Russian Revolutions had such a violent overreaction to them, why religious people have such a hard time with secular, pluralist society.

Polygamy is baked into Mormonism and it will never be given up, never. As long as Mormonism exists there will be elements pushing to return to polygamy, till the end of time. Because it’s a religion. That’s why jihad, or struggle, will always be interpreted as physical and violent by some Islamists, till the end of time, why some variants Christianity will always be opposed to homosexuality, it’s why Evangelicals oppose secular learning so strongly (Evangelicals most important belief is prosthelytizing).

If Evangelicals take over the Federal government, they’re going to do everything they can to make American society reflect their beliefs and desires, which is banning abortion, restoring “traditional” family values like female submission to men (the man must be the lord of his castle), rejecting science and beliefs that cause doubt in scripture, and all that.

[antlers]

So it’s analogous to decriminalizing prostitution, where the point is to minimize the harm of a practice that is going to go on anyway.

I’m skeptical that this is going to make the members of those communities much more willing to accept any sort of governmental/social intervention.

[KevinC]

That’s a much better analogy, thanks! And yeah, I think the impact will be small to start but over time hopefully it allows victims to feel more comfortable interacting with law enforcement in the future. Culturally, I think it’ll take some times for things to change.

Polygamy is baked into Mormonism and it will never be given up, never. As long as Mormonism exists there will be elements pushing to return to polygamy, till the end of time.

Polygamy isn’t a Mormon thing anymore. They tend to be the most strident anti-polygamists because they want to create separation from A) the past and B) the fringe groups who still practice it. There’s a reason the polygamist enclaves are based in places like Hilldale / Colorado City that straddle state lines.

Anyway, just a friendly tip not make such a claim to a Mormon unless you want to get a really stern lecture and scolding. :)

[Enidigm]

Man. Polygamy is one of those things where in theory, yo, consenting adults? Do what you want!

In practice, horrific abuse of young women.

Being the practical technocrat I generally am, hard pass.

Polygamy is a lot of legalizing prostitution. There is evidence that legalizing prostitution increases sex trafficking. The fantasy of The Girlfriend Experience, of enabled women having agency to choose high class clients in an elite urban setting is almost certainly a tiny, tiny fraction of prostitution, though it probably does exist.

Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?

It’s a lot like guns, or maybe a more ridiculous analogy, giant barrels of poison. You might be able to handle giant barrels of poison, be responsible about it. But can all of society? If every person in your country owned a giant barrel of poison, are you really safer? With issues like polygamy and prostitution the harms tend to be on a large scale across society and the benefits tend to be idiosyncratic and vary from person to person.

[BennyProfane]

I prefer Heinlein’s approach. Term marriages, for as many participants as wish to join.

[Enidigm]

The ultimate problem with polygamy is that it, in theory, deeply destabilizes society. A modern problem with polygamy is that it forces a reevaluation of what exactly consensual heterosexual relationships actually are, it creates incentives for women to agree to polygamous relationships out of financial or other structural needs, which gives incentive for polygamous societies to ensure those needs remain unfulfilled, and it an imbalance between available partners for men, which actually encourages a certain legalization of transactional sex (ie prostitution) to provide opportunities for those men. Which, again, pushes society in a certain direction.

Polygamy isn’t a Mormon thing anymore.

I mean, it is, it’s just not the majority. Like, many Christians are 100% on board with homosexuality, but it’s still part of the religion, they’re just rejecting it. There are some people that aren’t going to reject it.

if polygamy is no longer stigmatized - or even normalized - the numbers of Mormons who support it would dramatically go up. Because it’s part of their religion. If the Supreme Court re-criminalized homosexuality, lots of Christians who previously accepted it would gladly change their minds and reject it.

[KevinC]

I can’t say what will happen in the future, but the most anti-polygamist people I know are Mormon. In their mind, the FLDS polygamists are people who broke away the church, ignored God’s word through his prophet, and continue to stain their image today. They’re heretics and very much not liked among the mainstream LDS communities. I can only speak anecdotally, but my own experience growing up in a very religious LDS family is that there is a lot of animosity and disgust towards those who practice polygamy.

[Enidigm]

They’re heretics and very much not liked among the mainstream LDS communities. I can only speak anecdotally, but my own experience growing up in a very religious LDS family is that there is a lot of animosity and disgust towards those who practice polygamy.

Well, that’s a point i didn’t take into account, so you may be right in this - the “living prophet” tradition in the LDS, which gives doctrinal changes the force of scriptural authority. OTOH, if polygamy is in fact normalized a future living prophet might just declare it back on the menu, but that’s speculation.

[KevinC]

Yeah, I can’t make any claims on what happens down the road. In a very non-scientific feely sort of way, I don’t think any such change would happen anytime soon, but who knows?

While the decriminalization bill discussed does reduces polygamy from a felony, that doesn’t have an impact on any federal laws on the matter, I’m assuming? I’m very much not up to speed on what federal laws govern polygamy.

[Enidigm]

While the decriminalization bill discussed does reduces polygamy from a felony, that doesn’t have an impact on any federal laws on the matter, I’m assuming? I’m very much not up to speed on what federal laws govern polygamy.

None, but it’s just a signpost, like the laws getting passed across conservative states to reduce, restrict or ban abortion, or are “trigger” laws if/when abortion gets banned. It would (imo) have been unbelievable for such a bill to be considered say 30 years ago.

I wouldn’t expect modern Evangelicals to be especially resistant to re-legalizing polygamy. Sort of like this (to me) bizarre phenomenon with BDSM becoming popular with certain modern Evangelicals because it overlaps with female submission, this a “pro-sexy in marriage” thing among Evangelicals, and endless evangelical ink spilled about the Christian women submitting to husbands in a marriage relationship. Christianity doesn’t explicity forbid polygamy but it does have some possible interpretation against it. Monogamy seems mainly a Roman social convention overlaid on an explicitly polygamous Jewish religious tradition. But polygamy does have strong elements of the paternalistic, patriarchal social conventions that Evangelicals gravitate toward.

[Gordon_Cameron]

If it was good enough for Solomon…

[soondifferent]

Sort of like this (to me) bizarre phenomenon with BDSM becoming popular with certain modern Evangelicals because it overlaps with female submission

Huh, this is a thing?

[playingwithknives]

Evangelical BDSM

Public: I am Christian master of my submissive wife.
Private: Boab’s Mum and Dad from The Acid House.

[KevinC]

Huh, this is a thing?

That was my reaction as well, I just didn’t want to say anything because I was afraid of knowing more. :)