4211

Thanks, but I think this place is pretty even keeled on balance.

4212

I came across this gallery on Reddit and some quick (though admittedly light) spot checking seems like these are real. It essentially shows that (surveyed) republican stances extremely change based on who is in office at any given time, while changes in democratic opinions are much less muted in most cases.

There are some really crazy points in there though

I’m sure there’s some selective data in some of these but for me there’s enough different polling sources to point out a pattern.

4213

That is crazy! Fox News groupthink ?

4214

The problem is that the argument is fundamentally dishonest. It’s like saying, “Bill Cosby is an example of black influence that had dire consequences (for his fans).” It’s not a false statement in the narrow sense, but it implies a broader argument that is unsupported by the evidence it gives. Mao had dire consequences because he did a bunch of Orwellian, totalitarian shit. The bad policies weren’t the leftwing ones. This is the point that Bernie was trying to parse (but fucking up royally) when it came to Castro.

If you want to argue about the dangers of socialism, you should talk about the actual problems of command economies, not point to people who believed in command economies and then prove that is bad by saying they also believed in imprisoning all their political rivals and instituting thought police.

4215

But the literacy he was cheering on was indoctrination, so… he kinda did?

Not that indoctrination is left-wing by any stretch of the imagination, both right and left-wing autocrats have loved it.

4216

My reading comprehension may be off after a long day, but I think you’re both in agreement

4217

Yes absolutely. The example was a bad one (hence the royally fucking up part), but the broader point was that authoritarian policies enacted by people who also like socialist policies aren’t evidence that socialist policies are bad or that they lead to authoritarianism.

4218

I think the real moral of the story is this:
“Don’t say good things about authoritarian dictators.”

Like… It ain’t that hard a rule.

Especially Castro, given the Cuban population in Florida, which is a key battleground state.

4219

Also I think… “don’t double down on your fuck ups” is a good one. He’s not a Republican, that shit doesn’t fly for him.

All he had to say is that the nuance was misunderstood or whatever and denounce Castro.
Instead he decided that everyone was too stupid to get him and he doubled down on “Castro: Not that bad, really”, instead.

4220

Right, the appropriate response isn’t “well Castro did some good things.” It is, “Castro was an authoritarian dictator, not a democratic socialist, and I don’t agree with the terrible things he did.” Then if someone actually brings up a good program that is something you are pushing and Castro was pushing, you can say, “well I don’t know the details of that, but Castro’s goals were not my goals. My goals are…”

As you say, not hard.

4221

There are some physicians who tortured and killed people during, oh I don’t know, WWII that wound doing work we used today, and you won’t find too many decent people defending that even though those diagrams were used. I mean just imagine one of our candidates standing up there saying I don’t think it’s fair to only mention the torture and experimentation and horrific deaths without mentioning those pictures. It wasn’t 100% bad… said no one with a brain or decent heart.

4222

“Look the Japanese did a lot of ground-breaking medical work in the Second World War…” isn’t likely to win many votes.

4223

“Let’s ignore the Slavery for a moment and focus on the States’ Rights…”

4224

The thing that makes me so mad, furious with Bernie, is he could do this. He could actually change his message, hold onto his core beliefs, but he won’t do it. He refuses to do even the most basic small steps, and no, it’s not destroying what he believes. You can push literacy and not ever defend Castro while doing it. You can mention some interest in visiting these countries and later realizing what a horrific nightmare those places were for anyone with dissent or you know, the wrong color shoe, or skin.

4225

You pointing this out after the Castro thing is what finally soured me on him.

Before that I was kind of “sure, whatever, Feel the Bern, great.” Afterwards I realized everything you said was accurate and I started seeing the cult of personality shit seeping through. Now it’s almost all I see when I think about him. It started in 2016 and never stopped.

Worse, I see hints of Trumpism from close friends who support him. Blaming “the system”. Of course The System is just black people. Voting. God help us, it’s a coup!

Feels weird to say it, but I wanted to say thank you for pointing it out. It’s one of those few times where someone says something and it really changed my views on something so completely (the other time being when a transwoman talked to me, on a video game forum, no less, about being trans and made me do a 180 on a lot of stuff).

4226

Everyone knows that black people secretly control the levers of power in our country.

4227
4228

Did I? Interesting. I have my moments I guess. Try to remember that the next time you get furious with me. heh.

4229

Deal. Let’s shake on it.

4230

I’m pretty sure we are too? I need to become a Patreon to get a sentence underneath my username saying that I routinely agree, employ, and engage with post-Marxist theories so leftists on this site will stop reading a brief comment I made about Mao as a condemnation of leftwing ideology itself instead of a specific person who had Marxist tendencies. I bleed red same as you, comrades and fellow travelers!

(Also, I am willing to give qualified praise to people like Castro and Chavez and have no problem personally with what Bernie said in the context that he said it beyond it being bad politics and the fact that he’s a politician.)