Decent write up of Bob Dole’s career in the New Republic:
Also: Love the man, hate the website:
http://www.dolekemp96.org/main.htm
Thrag
12217
That is bad, but the competition wasn’t much better.
http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/websites/cg96/
Oof, I mean those were the pictures they chose for themselves. All I see is that Bill is confused by the modem and Al has something in his eye.
Sharpe
12218
Any impact from actual statements by Liberals or Democrats is completely overwhelmed by the 100X or 1000X or 10,000X exaggeration by the right wing media. I get the sentiment but there’s no way to win this sort of thing. There’s always going to be some dude somewhere who displays a “bad attitude” and the GOP message machine will then spew out an infinite amount of takes on that “offesnsive speech”. (Any irony about Cancel Culture completely disregarded of course.)
I’m done worrying about that sort of thing. I mean, I get the idea but I just don’t think tone policing matters at all these days.
Watching our words isn’t enough; there’s too much disinformation out there.
I don’t really have solutions to any of this but I’m not going to waste too much effort wringing my hands or worrying about tone policing.
I was just being a nerdy dick.
Timex
12220
But you could, and stick with me here… Choose not to judge people based on a single aspect that you deem the most terrible thing they did.
We could choose not to distill the existence of humans down into a single paritisan talking point.
Not because it’s electorially advantageous, although it probably is, but simply because it’s how normal people are supposed to treat each other. It’s how we would want others to treat us. Again, because outside of crazy political echo chambers, it’s how civilized society functions.
Thrag
12221
Those old campaign sites are kinda gold.
For example, this image showing Bill Clinton’s first time discovering internet porn.
Single aspect? The guy supported the tobacco lobby for years. He wanted to amend the constitution with the Human Life Amendment.
Fuck. That. Guy. I’m not gonna give him some fake respect now that he’s fucking dead.
Timex
12223
Yeah man, he also fought Nazis, and pushed for the Americans with disabilities act, and a ton of other shit because he lived 98 years.
Seriously dude, how can you not fucking get this? Is this how you deal with ACTUAL people in the real world? You think about the worst thing they did and judge them on it?
Is that how I should judge you? Because I bet you’ve done some fucking terrible shit that you are embarrassed about Brian. Maybe not on the national stage, but you’ve done some bad things that you do not want to be the thing they carve on your tombstone.
But you are more than that single bad thing you did, right? You are in fact, a human being. Your actual existence is more than some political stance.
I look at it as a scale, and in my mind, he fought in the war, and he supported the disabilities act, that’s great. But I’m sorry, the DECADES of supporting the tobacco industry, to me, tip the scales more toward the “evil” direction.
I just don’t think he was an overall good guy because he did one or two good things in his life. I think, and have always thought since I became aware of him in 1996, that the bad outweighed the good. I’m not gonna pretend otherwise just because he died.
I mean he I GUESS contributed some good to this world, but I just can’t overlook all the NOT GOOD he contributed as well.
Does that make me some sort of partisan asshole? Probably, but at this point I’m too tired to care. I mean fuck my feelings, right?
Timex
12225
If you actually took the time to think about all the stuff he did, and on balance you decided he was an evil man, then so be it. That’s fine.
But if you just took some partisan bullshit take on his entire life, and said he was bad because he supported the tobacco industry, then that’s not ok, because you aren’t treating his life with the same level of respect for its complexity that you would want someone to use when judging you.
Thrag
12226
Jesus people, how hard is it to show some minimal respect. If you all really need to have this discussion then do it properly.
If you actually took the time to think about all the stuff Bod Dole did, and on balance you decided Bob Dole was an evil man, then so be it. That’s fine.
I think it would improve the civility and readability of this thread if we could just all honor Bob Dole’s preferences and refer to Bob Dole as Bob Dole and not reduce Bob Dole to a simple “he”.
But did he make the trains run on time, at least? Or design a rocket to the moon?
There’s no doubt that if I had a tenth of the responsibility it wouldn’t go well, that’s why, in principle, the job goes to a tiny minority of a tiny minority that we expect better from. And the utter failure of holding them accountable for anything at all is one big reason why another set of people buy into bothsiderism, but, hey, they’re just idiots who’d vote the right way if only they weren’t idiots and voted for the empty words about climate, education, health, labor and what the rest of it that, like war, never changes.
It’s not like I care for the man one way or the other, it doesn’t affect me. But that principle, man, we’re fucked changing nothing anytime soon because very serious people with a fancy suit are the only reasonable people.
Alstein
12228
They haven’t. It’s mostly the never-Trumpers who furrow their brows and clutch pearls at that. The epitomy of order above justice.
Even as someone who thinks Dole did net good in the fight against fascism, he did end up doing things to help both sides. I understand why folks are upset at the way he is viewed by others here.
What cost us in NJ and VA was weak candidates and a horrible situation.
Certainly, we should respect all patriots who were wounded in a terrible war and then dedicated their lives to the politics of the right, and we should never ever speak ill of any of them when they’re dead. Who else is in? What could go wrong?
There are are going to be ten billion paeans published and broadcast about Bob Dole for days to come, all of which will call him a great American hero while glossing over how basically terrible many of his political desires were for ordinary people, and I hardly think a few people posting demurrals here is going to make the slightest difference to that flood. Alongside that, the reflexive pearl-clutching about respect for the dead just strikes me as silly.
Look, Trump may have been a terrible President, but that was just four years of his life. Think about the decades of job-building and beautiful casino and hotel construction he oversaw along with the many ratings points he brought to NBC through reality TV.
And don’t forget the beautiful and giving children he brought into the world!
Respect for the dead is about tone more than content, but the content has to start with the truth. Which is why hagiographizing (sorry if that’s not a word) Bob Dole, as many establishment outlets are doing and will do, is as disrespectful as demonizing him. Seems to me he was a pretty poor politician and his time in power was pretty bad for the country. Being able to say that without doing the rhetorical equivalent of teabagging his grave is all that decorum demands. Sometimes we can’t manage that in this forum.
CraigM
12236
Agreed. This is one of the best things I’ve read on that very subject
And his follow up when Rush assumed ambient temperature
I’m glad you put it that way, because it is true, but it is the kind of disrespect that gets no mention, and will set no tongues wagging in polite company.
Bob Dole is more complicated. He deserves more respect than Cadet Bone Spurs simply because he did do something worthy of respect. Dole’s actions and injuries from WWI are something that merit respect, but they do not negate his later public life. Nor does his political actions and stances erase his war service.
Also Bob Dole jokes were often funny. So at the very least his failed Presidential campaign did give me plenty of smiles for a time.
Yup, Eisenhower. Led the Allies to Victory in Europe but warned us of the military-industrial complex in his farewell speech.
Gerald Ford was probably OK as well.
