“We’re not a democracy, we’re a Republic” was an argument the Birch society popularized as the rational for opposing civil rights legislation and denying the vote to POC. Even the article explains that.

Sure. But it doesn’t make it less true, including constitutionally. Every time we have a president that loses the popular vote, it’s reinforced. The same is true for legislation that dies in the senate, with strong house support—it is significant, and intentional, feature of our government.

In this particular context, so what?

It’s a variation on the ‘all lives matter’ response gambit. Certainly true, but indicative of something else.

It matters in that there doesn’t have to be proven fraud across the country—just in key states that would have flipped the electoral vote. Lee is a coward and partisan hack, but based on the info that came out, he isn’t a traitor.

I never said he was a traitor. I don’t even think he committed a crime. On the other hand, I think he has transparently failed to uphold his oath and is unfit for elective office.

Exactly. The standard for impeachment or fitness for office should not be “did you break the law” but “did you break your oath.” Looking for legal avenues to subvert the constitution, with the confidence that a partisan Supreme Court will look the other way if you ever get called on it, is not upholding and defending the constitution.

Turn it around and tell me that if Obama/Biden had done this for Hillary in 2016, and then followed up with an invasion of the Capitol.

If they had looked into election results for fraud and then concluded there wasn’t any and ended up allowing a peaceful transfer of power, then what’s the problem?

This strikes me as a not very accurate description of what happened. Even Lee did more than this. What stopped him wasn’t the absence of evidence for fraud. It was the absence of action by state legislatures.

What did Lee do? Just reading the various stories on this all I see is a bunch of text messages from the immediate post-election period saying “there may be a way to keep Trump in office legally, but we need evidence of voter fraud” along with repeated warnings later that the evidence-free conspiracy theory claims weren’t going to work and were going to create defamation liability.

We all agree that the “Stop the steal” nonsense was bad, and Trump is responsible for the Jan 6th uprising because he out his fanatics up to it. But I don’t see, from the released text messages, how that can be pinned on Mike Lee. He’s not a guy I follow closely by any means so maybe I’m missing something? All I’m seeing in the messages is the exact same polite agreement with caveats type tone that I use professionally with clients/executives who have an extreme sounding idea and need to be gently talked down.

At this point, if you a Republican and did not vote to impeach Trump, or still support the big lie in any fashion; you are a piece of shit. We can debate the size, texture, and smells, but the essential shitness of the human being is not in doubt.

That’s the downside of the aftermath of 2020, we didn’t prevent a future state legislature from stealing an election. It’s bound to happen now, and I suspect when it does we’ll live in interesting times, because I just don’t see the losing side accepting the results as legitimate at all, and a nullification crisis is likely.

Even without any evidence of fraud, he was calling state legislators trying to gin up support from some of them that would allow him to have cover for voting not to certify some electors. He wanted an alternate slate of electors appointed by the legislature, or he wanted statements from legislators that they would vote for an alternative slate of electors. He was doing this, still, on January 3. He didn’t abandon that position because there was no evidence. He abandoned it because there was no political cover from the states, and without that there wouldn’t be enough Senators opposed to make a difference.

Hear, hear!

There is no way under the constitution to prevent a future state legislature from stealing an election. The constitution leaves up to the state legislatures the manner in which they choose electors, and the only way to fix that would be an amendment to the constitution, and such an amendment would never make it through the Senate. It’s not as if we could have done something and didn’t. There wasn’t anything that could be done.

You’re right. We’re d0med.

You are correct in that there was no overt Constitutional mechanism to prevent this. Like so much in our Constitution, there were assumed norms and assumed reactions by the voters. The voters should have turned on the GOP hard for this, but they didn’t. It should be noted that a lot of commentators were in fact expecting a chunk of voters, including many GOP/Trump voters to turn against Trump after 1/6. But it didn’t happen. It SHOULD have happened but it didn’t.

Ultimately if the voters won’t carry their of the burden of defending democracy there’s not a lot that can be done. Bad institutions can facilitate, accelerate and exacerbate the weaknesses of democracy, but even the very best institutions imaginable cannot overcome an electorate that looks at Trump’s “grab em by the pussy” comments and says “that’s just locker room talk.”, or the many many equivalents (“just locker room extortion” on Ukraine - “just locker room sedition” on 1/6 ad nauseum.)

I honestly don’t know what to do about the electorate, at core.

Simply put , if they’re not going to care, it’s run, hide , or fight, especially if you’re an obvious target.

I think we really underestimated the role off culture in all of this. Back when Newt and company were accelerating the GOP’s dive into the extreme right-wing, conspiracy-fueled, paranoid dystopia sphere, Democrats and even moderate Republicans and independents kept pointing to empirical data on economics, foreign policy, crime, whatever to try and frame political discourse along what they saw as “normal” lines, lines based on what was actually going on. Over the years, this has continued; 2016 showed this, as Trump’s chances were dismissed because objectively his arguments made no sense and the perception of the world he had was not rooted in reality.

But none of that really matters, does it? What matters is that a large chunk of the population is willing to ignore everything other than their fear of cultural erosion. When you have people loudly proclaiming that the USA is a Christian country where the church broadly speaking is the state, where you have people openly depicting people of color as outside the boundaries of what they consider to be America, where people are willing to roll back individual reproductive rights and freedoms to 19th century levels, where political parties effectively argue that thee only legitimate vote is a vote for them because the other side is manifestly non-American–this stuff cannot be countered by logic or reason. It is pure culture war, and the majority of the voters seem to not understand this even now.

There is no arguing with the GOP at this point. About the only possible tactic that will work is getting enough people to vote against every Republican candidate possible that it becomes impossible to fudge the election results. Instead, the Democrats split on different lines like age, race, income, religion, you name it. When one side is operating with the traditional system off arguing out meaningful policy positions under the assumption that all the players are working under the same assumptions, and the other side is playing by a whole different set off rules, things are not going to work well.

And it is much, much easier to get people fired up over abortion, gender identity, race, religion, and self image issues than it is to get them fired up over economic policy, diplomatic initiatives, or nuanced educational reform. The GOP is refusing to abandon their positions and Trump precisely because those positions and Trump are utterly insane. They are literally inarguable, and thus fit perfectly into the strategy of riling up cultural fears to the level that anything becomes justified.

Personally, I think most of the leaders in the GOP are just mendacious evil people who will do anything for power. But some of them I think are also true believers in a fascist theocracy governed by a warped interpretation of Protestant Christianity and a very traditional if virulent form of white supremacy, with a dollop of hypocritical sexual moralizing thrown in for good Freudian measure.

I think the distress everyone is feeling comes from seeing that nobody really know how to pull off this tactic; to get the voters to reject this kind of Republicanism in sufficient numbers to keep them out of power. It isn’t really that Democrats haven’t tried it — the essence of Clinton’s campaign was that guy is a batshit crazy grifter who stands for racism and oppression and cruelty — but rather that far too many are all for that.