The Lord of the Rings, an Amazon joint

[Sharpe]

Those are plot points, not core concepts, and I don’t agree with your check marks on most of them even as plot points.

As to the core concepts of Tolkien, Tolkien was writing myth more than anything else and thus his work needs to be understood that way. The whole “humanization of Sauron” is a misunderstanding of Tolkien. Sauron is a force of darkness more than an individual personality; almost a force of nature. The Elves are long lived and have been resisting the corruption of Middle Earth for thousands of years; they are not going to suddenly wither because some trees got sick. The whole “fighting the long defeat” is a huge theme of Tolkien and the show did not get that.

In addition to not getting those core concepts, the writing was substantively poor, even nonsensical in several key areas. The whole “Galadriel jumps into the sea” thing never worked for me. I was very pro-RoP those first 3 or 4 episodes so I just rolled my eyes and hoped the show would “pick up” but in hindsight, that was a harbinger of the disappointment to come. That scene made no sense. The battle sequence at the tower and the village were poor - no sense of scale or tactics. The constant teasing of “Oh Bronwyn is dead! Nope, she’s alive!” - “Oh, Theo is dead, Nope here he is.” and “Oh Isildur is dead” (we all know he’s not.) are just poor writing.

On top of all that we have the intentionally contradictory and deceptive “clues” about Halbrand, Meteor Man, Adar and Sauron. Now this may be a personal preference of mine but I hate that stuff. Just tell the story. Don’t try to “excite” me with “clues” that can be interpreted many different ways in service of the script. There are good ways to build a mystery in shows; I just rewatched Veronica Mars Season 1 and that’s a master class in how to do it. There was an actual legit mystery there, not a manufactured one, and the clues were all there in the show organically in the script and events and visible to the characters but didn’t come together until the end. That’s how to do mystery. By contrast, the JJ Abrams “mystery box” idea is not really a true building of mystery but rather revealing “clues” to the viewers to generate excitement.

So I found this show a severe disappointment for 3 reasons: 1)It didn’t get Tolkien, 2)the writing was inconsistent, relied on cheap dramatics and was often poor and nonsensical, and 3)I personally hate the Mystery Box stuff.

[Penny_Dreadful]

So your two core concepts are that Sauron is a force of darkness more than an individual personality, and that the Elves should be “fighting the long defeat”.

Firstly, I would say that Sauron, during this timeline, is very much more an individual personality than a force of darkness. He may certainly be that in the Third Age, but in the Second Age he is a very real, tangible form who commits his primary evil through direct deception. So I completely disagree with you there. Beyond that, Sauron revealed himself at the end of the final episode of the season, so I’d say you’re jumping the gun a bit.

As far as the Elves are concerned—fighting the long defeat is kind of a supremely vague description of what you want actually on display here. Some of their backstory was told in the beginning of the show which told of their trials and longevity. The Elves of Eregion created the Rings of Power out of a desire to preserve their lands and protect it against decay. Protect it against decay…

This is exactly them “fighting the long defeat”. In the Third Age during the War of the Ring, they are resigned to the fact that their fate goes with the fate of the One Ring, and that with its destruction their power and realms will fade, and so shall they if they remain in Middle Earth.

[Sharpe]

@Sharpe

PJ made a number of changes, but he understood the core of Tolkien: the mythological feel, the contrast between good and evil, the importance of resistance and fighting the long defeat, the mix of breathtaking epic set pieces with a bittersweet overall tone.

I already defined what I considered core concepts in the post you responded to but you ignored that. Then I tried to explain a bit more and at this point, and you paraphrased my explanation to diminish the meaning. I’m done engaging with you Penny_Dreadful. I don’t feel you are participating reasonably in this conversation.

[SlainteMhath]

@TimJames

To be fair to the show, it didn’t seem like a crisis of faith situation to me. It looked like he was casting Deception Magic and she was having to resist and hold on to what was real.

@Beerbelly_Sneetch

He didn’t just ‘make an offer.’ Sauron was using magic. It had visions and everything. Sauron was once a good guy, a Maia. He himself was seduced, probably by magic. This is him trying to do to Galadriel what Melkor did to him.

The difference is that Galadriel resisted, where Sauron did not. She’ll do the same thing when offered the ring in the third age.

I choose my words poorly. I meant that given everything Galadriel had been through to that point, over literally hundreds of years, it was foolish to think she would succumb to Sauron’s deception magic especially given that she knew his real identity before the scene even started. Maybe that was the point though, to show that Sauron miscalculated Galadriel’s strength, realized this during the scene, and switched to attempting to kill her with the deception magic when he realized she couldn’t be corrupted? So not so much a crisis of faith so much as a reaffirmation of purpose for Galadriel.

The mithril stuff still bugs me though. It could have been handled so much better. As written it is very sloppy. It would not have taken much additional screen time to tie things together better with a storyline about how Elrond or Celebrimbor poured through the elven archives and discovered that there was mention of places where the Valar fought evil or performed great feats of magic and the very earth and stone became imbued with traces of their power. That this power is the same as that which permeates Valinor and grants the elves their peace and immortality. Finding ore imbued with this power in Middle Earth would be the equivalent of bringing a piece of Valinor to Middle Earth, and that is why it can revive the Lindon tree and by association the elves of Middle Earth. But what the limited information in the archives do not mention is that the same power was used by the Valar to bind and imprison ancient forces of great evil, and that the veins of mithril below Moria have kept the Balrog imprisoned there for millennia. Simple, easy, doesn’t really change or break Tolkien canon in any grievous way, and could have been done in a couple of 3-5 minute scenes of Elrond/Celebrimbor doing research and having a breakthrough spread across a couple of episodes leading up to the forging of the elven rings.

Basically, I find myself solidly in between the opinions in this thread. One the one hand, I really liked the show for a whole lot of reasons I have already mentioned, and can’t wait to see more. I want to LOVE it, but the writing, especially the constant use of common TV tropes and crutches, keeps me from being all in. In that respect I find myself agreeing on many things with @Sharpe and the others who were disappointed that the show set high bars for nearly every aspect other than the actual plotlines/writing. On a positive note, that CAN be fixed. Assuming the producers take the constructive criticism leveled at the show seriously (and don’t just lump it in with the racist garbage criticism it received initially), there is room for improvement and plenty of time to rework the writers room and the scripts for next season and beyond.

Regardless, I am watching because more Middle Earth can never be a bad thing in my eyes.

[roguefrog]

I have decided to step away from discussing the show, at least in it’s current season 1 incarnation, indefinitely.

I really don’t like it, and I’d rather talk about actual Tolkien stuff when I do.

well, bye.gif ; tinyest violin, etc

[TimJames]

@SlainteMhath

I choose my words poorly. I meant that given everything Galadriel had been through to that point, over literally hundreds of years, it was foolish to think she would succumb to Sauron’s deception magic especially given that she knew his real identity before the scene even started. Maybe that was the point though, to show that Sauron miscalculated Galadriel’s strength, realized this during the scene, and switched to attempting to kill her with the deception magic when he realized she couldn’t be corrupted? So not so much a crisis of faith so much as a reaffirmation of purpose for Galadriel.

I’m going to need the show’s DM to weigh in on how this deception magic works. Is there a saving throw, and can it be adjusted based on thousands of years of struggle?

[Telefrog]

I just rolled a 14 on a d20 for the D&D folks.

I also rolled an 8 on a d12 and a 3, 4, 6 on 3d6 for The One Ring fans.

[Djscman]

@TimJames

I’m going to need the show’s DM to weigh in on how this deception magic works. Is there a saving throw, and can it be adjusted based on thousands of years of struggle?

It’s a special ability the celestial can transfer into artifacts it crafts. You’d have to pass a Wisdom save of DC, hmm, 30 to save against it. Too bad you’re playing a High Elf, if you were a hobbit, they’ve got a +5 bonus for those kind of saves. Yeah, it’s kind of OP, but I haven’t seen any errata for the monster yet.

A few thousand years worth of struggle? I guess I can give you Advantage on the roll. You want to make it a Wisdom (Athletics) roll? Jeez, I guess I can see that. Mathematically, though, I think you’re gonna need a nat 20. Good luck.

[tomchick]

I have grey eyes.

[easytarget]

Some thoughts on editing and pacing:

The Rings of Power has a Narrative Momentum Problem

[BloodyBattleBrain]

@SlainteMhath

And the less we talk about mithril the better.

I mean, I kinda understand and sympathise that mithril was being used to generate urgency to making the rings.

However that reasoning (mithril = light = save the Elves) doesn’t hold for the next 9 and 7 rings that must be made … :(

The mithril story … just ugh from me :(

@SlainteMhath

At no time during any of the 8 episodes did I feel that an actor’s ethnicity negatively affected their ability to portray their character in any way, and in some cases like Durin’s wife Disa, Arondir and Sardoc I thought it actually helped enhance the intensity or gravity of their character. I very much enjoyed Middle Earth as a more diverse setting than it was originally written 75 years ago.

On this I agree, with the exception of the accents.

They were a bit jarring imho, like Elves = higher class British, Hobbits = simple fold and therefore Irish…just…weird…like there was no need for accent archetyping imho, they could have has the actors using their irl accents.

[BloodyBattleBrain]

@SlainteMhath

If this show was telling Sauron’s story from the time before and shortly after he was corrupted by Melkor, than sure, that would be a great time in which to tell a story of complexity where Sauron’s intentions might have still been somewhat noble, but influenced and corrupted by evil.

This would be a pretty cool show I think :).

@SlainteMhath

I’m not going to claim there isn’t an interesting story to tell centered around Second Age Sauron as I’m certain there is

The fact that he got humbled by Numenor, then corrupted them to the extent they tried to war on the Elves…that alone is a story worth exploring imho.

@Sharpe

Martha Wells, Daniel Abrahams, N.K. Jemisin

Time to get more books it seems…

@Sharpe

Basically, the writers just don’t get Tolkien.

I think, to “get” Tolkien in the way you describe requires engaging in a mindset that is perhaps not the most politically correct, e.g. that a being can be innately good or evil, e.g. Orcs have no redeeming features etc.

I think the idea of archetypes is one that ought to have been explored in the show, and I think things could have been slowed down a bit more.

I mean, I would have liked to see more Dwarves, more Harfoots etc, in settings of less stress.

@Sharpe

On top of that, their writing was inconsistent and often of poor quality

It was consistently poor imho, with good bits in each episode.

Very mixed. For example, I liked the Galadriel character the most, but she was all over the shop.

Durin the younger was consistent I think, as in torn between friendship, his wife and duty.

@Penny_Dreadful

Jesus, the dude that played Halbrand absolutely killed it in his role.

Adar gets my vote. We know there were many thousands of Elves (mostly Noldor iirc) that got imprisoned and corrupted by Melkor, so the idea of one that survived and was trying to do his own thing, well I thought that was interesting.

@Sharpe

the mix of breathtaking epic set pieces with a bittersweet overall tone.

The 2nd movie, with the Rohan civilians fleeing and the Uruks gathering in strength, that is a good memory :).

@Sharpe

But instead they just wrote what I consider to be a bunch of nonsense, driven by a desire to deceive and misdirect viewers to “create engagement”.

Is that the desire, or was it just uselessness? Or both? Hmmm…

@Beerbelly_Sneetch

She’ll do the same thing when offered the ring in the third age.

Indeed, there was some nice foreshadowing in that scene I thought.

@SlainteMhath

I really liked the show for a whole lot of reasons I have already mentioned

Well, I did watch it all, and I will watch Season 2, so there is that…

[Anklebiter]

@BloodyBattleBrain

Adar gets my vote. We know there were many thousands of Elves (mostly Noldor iirc) that got imprisoned and corrupted by Melkor, so the idea of one that survived and was trying to do his own thing, well I thought that was interesting.

Of all the story crap they made up, I thought this was the only one with value. I wish the rest of the show brought cool ideas like this.

[eliandi]

Finally got to watch the finale last night as watching family has not been together.

@SlainteMhath

One the one hand, I really liked the show for a whole lot of reasons I have already mentioned, and can’t wait to see more. I want to LOVE it, but the writing, especially the constant use of common TV tropes and crutches, keeps me from being all in.

Yep, this is me too. I enjoyed the series, but man it could have been better if they’d consistently taken the high fantasy road.

@BloodyBattleBrain

I think, to “get” Tolkien in the way you describe requires engaging in a mindset that is perhaps not the most politically correct, e.g. that a being can be innately good or evil, e.g. Orcs have no redeeming features etc.

Yes, the series presented a major modern revision of the Tolkien view, one that I think will be interesting to see if they try to explore more.

We are in for season 3!

[TheWombat]

@eliandi

Yes, the series presented a major modern revision of the Tolkien view, one that I think will be interesting to see if they try to explore more.

I agree, in theory. Like many of my students, though, just because they have the beginnings of a take on something doesn’t mean they can actually deliver on it. It’s like reading a few pages of Foucault and then thinking you can write a brilliant post-structuralist critique of baguettes or something.

[Beerbelly_Sneetch]

@TheWombat

post-structuralist critique of baguettes

Easy!

[Sharpe]

That looks tasty. Just add a dab of olive oil.

Or maybe some nice cheese, maybe a strong aged Muenster…

Or some Italian ham…

Is it lunchtime yet?

[Papageno]

Funny stuff:

Honest Trailers | Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Season 1)

[Matt_W]

Agree with @Sharpe that misdirection in a Tolkien fantasy is dumb. As one famous writer* once said (and has since recanted on a bit) part of Tolkien’s oeuvre is his “cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity.” The Lord of the Rings is nothing if not very very earnest and misdirection undermines that vibe. I confess I like mystery box shows, but Tolkien’s high fantasy deserves a straight narrative.

I found it tonally jarring to watch this juxtaposed with House of the Dragon, which is subtle, grown-up, and has a great deal of moral complexity (even if it also has a reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos.) Tolkien in 2022 seems so… quaint, so PG-13.

Even so, I enjoyed The Rings of Power, kind of in the same way @tomchick did; I watched about 20 minutes at a time just before falling asleep, so mostly just liked hearing Morfydd Clark say “Sauron” and watching Nazanin Boniadi traipse around in fetching coveralls with Ismael Cordova glowering at her elbow. The landscapes were awesome, the geography was nonsense (as it is in nearly every fantasy screen adaptation), the characters were all well drawn, well casted and well acted, the plotting was bleh, and the pacing was mostly glacial. I’ll watch a second season, but I won’t be waiting for it with bated breath like I am for season two of HoD.

I am a fan of hot Sauron though.

*China Mieville

[tomchick]

@Matt_W

hearing Morfydd Clark say “Sauron”

If there’s anything even one-tenth as hot in House of Dragons, I’ll watch it.