Razgon
1981
The games with the most longevity (In my opinion, of course) have all had some sort of modding access, and some even released their toolsets, like all the Elder Scrolls series, which are still being played a lot across the entire series. Games like Mount & Blade has an enormous modding fanbase where total conversions are constantly taking place, still - here 5 years after release of the game. I don’t think either of them released their sourcecode, but just made it possible to change a lot of things either through toolsets, or through how the game itself is structured.
Granath
1982
I thought they said that it was impossible.
rezaf
1983
Pod / Razgon, you don’t need to sell me on modding, I’m a big fan - and of course it’s true that allowing scripting or offering up some sort of API can make great things possible, as does offering full-featured modding toolsets like Bethesda, but I was asking a question specific to this SimCity game.
To me, the biggest problems are somehow tied to the online-only model (which they appearently might get rid of now) and modding what goes on server-side was always out of the question, I’d guess. So even if you could make the game support bigger regions or fancy new features locally, as long as the servers cannot handle it, it’d be “useless” - at least until they lift the online-only policy.
So, seriously, which kind of mods were you guys expecting?
Many games which run their code on a remote server are known as MMOs, and are there any mods for those except UI tweaks and bots?
rezaf
Razgon
1984
Well, well well…this makes the mod situation even more baffling - Simcity offline mode coming.
edit: Dammit!
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if they ‘borrowed’ the code from that modder that hacked it to play offline.
According to the official modding policy, they can do so without crediting the author. LOL
By the way, I just wanted to drop this here as a reminder of the kinds of dumb things that were said back then.
Razgon
1990
Well, he didn’t actually LIE… If you didn’t work at maxis, you really had no way of knowing.
tgb123
1991
Be thankful they aren’t selling off-line play as an expansion for $29.95, or, better yet, calling it Simcity VI and charging another $60 for it
robc04
1992
Well, he is only a Polygon editor.
Actually, his tweet was a response to the RPS story that someone had hacked a working version of offline mode, but Gies and RPS were having a Twitter argument about the “unidentified source” and how that source said the hack was easily done with some faked server calls.
Technically, someone DID know.
Anyway, I guess Polygon will have to update their review again.
I have a question, being I actually enjoyed SimCity (though I never really played the older games) - if the offline mode comes and introduces larger space to build in and make larger cities (not saying it will, but hypothetically) would that make this a game people would play and enjoy, or are there just too many fundamental problems with the actual game itself to get anyone who hates it to try again? Just honestly curious, I haven’t played SimCity since the first few weeks of release, but I really did have a relaxing and fun time putzing around while I did (I didn’t get super into it, though).
They would have to add much larger cities to satisfy me. Offline mode is nice, but it was never one of my main issues with the game. The sim being too small and still broken is more of a deterrent.
You’ve said this before, you’re implying that all mods redistribute the game. Is that actually true? I don’t know about the latest Sim City game, what form do the mods take? e.g. that mod that turns off online checks.
a) downloadable patches applied on the player’s computer that alter the executable game code
a2) instructions on which bytes in a binary file a player can alter
b) new code in dlls that are injected or naturally loaded by the game
c) instructions for people to alter data files.
d) copies of data or executable files that someone has altered and then re-uploaded
e) another distinct fashion that I’ve forgotten?
It’s completely ok, from a legal point of view, for a piece of executable code to use another person’s assets. An example of that is the Doom engine re-implementations. You’re right that you’re not free to re-distribute modified copies of the game, but that’s now what I’m talking about here. For all we know all of the viable Sim City mods don’t actually do this. They could simply be patches that alter things.
‘Reverse-engineering’ and applying modifications to executable code ( a) in this case) is often deemed ‘illegal’ in EULAs and so on. I have no idea of its actual legal status in the US, but I’d imagine it’s in favour of it not happening and enforcing the producer’s will, because that’s basically how all US software laws work. Caveat to everything in this post: IANAL.
Copyright owners (EA) have the right to control the creation and distribution of derivative works, meaning works that are based on their works. So, for instance, it’s a violation of copyright, absence some sort of implied license or fair use defense, to create and distribute unauthorized sequels or substantial changes to an underlying work. EA’s objective in releasing this mod policy was precisely to undercut any claim of implied license. Note that EA’s right to control derivative works does not apply only to mods that explicitly copy key game assets. Derivative work protection also protects the rights holder from the unauthorized “calling”, through the use of computer code, of protected assets. See the microstar v. formgen case from the 9th circuit, which dealt with duke nukem derivative works.
Reverse engineering to achieve basic interoperability is okay, but not to creative derivative works.
I do not think the game would work with larger cities as designed now. A good way of thinking about Glassbox is that it is “controlled chaos,” or really “controlled randomness.” The agents behave in an unpredictable manner, which only works because the city sizes are manageable. Every time a power agent comes to a fork in the road, that power agent has to decide where to go. Increase the city size --> increase forks in roads --> reduce effectiveness of power agents --> cripple game balance.
The poster above showed a very large Simcity 4 city, and contrasted it with a tiny SC5 city. I think the reason I enjoy SC5 is that, for me, its micro-level simulation is more interesting than SC5’s macro-level sim, which mostly involved fiddling with sliders in predictable ways. But it does not resemble a real city, in terms of scope, and that is a fatal flaw for many people. Many basic mechanics were also botched, obviously, but I’m trying to talk about the design more than the glitches.
A mod patch isn’t (necessarily) a derivative work, though. A modded copy of the game is. The code/content of a mod could be entirely original. Now in this case the DMCA restrictions on removing DRM would probably apply to any offline mod. But there’s nothing to prevent the distribution of mods per se.
Microstar v FormGen is an interesting case, but note that the court found that it was the story of Duke Nukem that was protected and which created the derivative work. Micro Star was infringing because it was making unauthorised sequels. It’s not clear from precedent that referencing original assets in a totally new setting would be infringement. Also, MicroStar’s levels were sold commercially. You’re always going to be on much rockier ground if you’re selling stuff.
I agree. That is nearly at the top of my issues with the game.
The DMCA issue is why everyone’s analogy of modding to “painting your car” is so misguided. Sure, you can paint your car, because your car doesn’t have digital access restrictions that are explicitly protected by federal law. So I am glad you touched on that, and you are right that mods (at least the ones being discussed here) would probably involve illegally gutting DRM.
Sure, not all mods are derivative works, and even those that are might be fair use, especially if not sold. But if you start talking about a mini expansion pack – like what the community did with NAM for SC4 – then that is a much closer case, and it pretty clearly would compete in the same market as EA’s expansions. That would raise derivative works issues, regardless of whether you are redistributing the whole game, and regardless of whether you are selling.
I suspect EA will continue to back off its policies as SC5 ages. The reason they are shifting to offline play now is that they feel they have warded off a lot of the piracy, at a time when piracy is highest (right after release).
