The new United States ... not so much a nation as a religion

Ok, I can agree to that, considering the 40-44 period in France.

If you actually thought France was older as a “free” nation (Amerispeak) than the USA then it’s my turn to look like this: :shock:

France had a dictator and a few kings and a few more revolutions after the first one, all home-made. The German occupation and the Vichy government hardly matter in that context.

Actually, I’d look at Switzerland for an older country that has been (kind of) democratic for its entire existence.

A dictator : you mean Napoleon ?

A few more revolutions : you mean 1870 ? 1968 (which was hardly a revolution) ?

How does that change the fact that we were free ? And long before you I might add. But no I was not speaking of France in particular, we’re not the center of the world, and I know that - I can’t say the same for everyone here.

Just to clarify again for the benefit of our overseas friends. There is a large portion of this country that detests what Bush is doing to our cherished ideals of civil liberties. Bush has done more damage to those ideals in the last 2 years then in the previous 200. Laws like the “Patriot” act that are all about taking away your freedoms are a mockery of what the US is supposed to be about. We have farmed the world for revenue just as much as the next nation for the last 200 years. We have nothing “proud” to stand on here in comparision to the British Empire. I and others can only hope Bush is voted out and someone else can be elected who represents a better image of what the US is really about.

See? That gives me warm fuzzies. Can’t we all just set our differences aside and focus on hating Bush until the next election? It’s the one thing that just about all the Qt3-ers here can agree on.

Hey, we’re on the same side. We live pretty much the same lives, our cultures are not that different. It’s what saddens me the most, that sometimes we can’t get along. And part of that is due to the deformed cliche we have become for each other, thanks to the medias.

Anyways…

Be careful! You’ve just blown the “Attract bmulligan” klaxon.

:D

Well, we can focus on hating the media, too. I’m fine with that.

Yes, obviously. Last time I checked he left a few millions dead in his wake and wasn’t too big on popular elections.

A few more revolutions : you mean 1870 ? 1968 (which was hardly a revolution) ?

You really should read up on the history of your own country. Following the final defeat of Napoleon, a constitutional monarchy was set up against which the grande bourgeoisie revolted in 1830, replacing Charles X with a more convenient king, Louis Philippe. And then the proletarians revolted against the new establishment in 1848, unsuccessfully though; another emperor was then established. France didn’t actually become a democratic republic (for any length of time) until 1870, due to the defeat of emperor Napoleon III against Prussia and her German allies.

How does that change the fact that we were free ? And long before you I might add.

As elaborated above, my dear ignoramus, France was not actually “free” in the American sense until 1870, which was only due to military defeat and no more than 48 years before Germany (for the same reason but with reversed roles).

But no I was not speaking of France in particular, we’re not the center of the world, and I know that - I can’t say the same for everyone here.

Well, since you appear to subscribe to the American interpretation of “freedom” you might want to nominate some other nation then that could dispute the United States’ claim for being the oldest such country. Were you really thinking of Switzerland, or…?

And those millions dead died of torture, or oppression, or… ?

You really should read up on the history of your own country.

Always a pleasure. I’d say you should learn the lessons of yours, but that’d be lost in the wind.

France didn’t actually become a democratic republic (for any length of time) until 1870, due to the defeat of emperor Napoleon III against Prussia and her German allies.

1870, wait a minute, I mentionned that date…

As elaborated above, my dear ignoramus, France was not actually “free” in the American sense until 1870, which was only due to military defeat and no more than 48 years before Germany (for the same reason but with reversed roles).

What’s free in the American sense ? Iraq free ? Afghanistan free ?

Well, since you appear to subscribe to the American interpretation of “freedom”

I didn’t subscribe to anything. Especially your American interpretation of the world. You’re the one patronizing me with your mighty knowledge.

If Bush had predicted that it wouldn’t be a happy fun cakewalk people might be a little less worried about the combat deaths. And 2 dead a day would put us on track for a thousand total in the first year.

Christoph Nahr
Location: Passau, BY

BY… hrmm… what state is that… oh wait a minute, that’s right, Christoph is German. :lol:

And ? Did he not mention the “American interpretation” ?

I would argue that the British kick our butts in the free nation contest. Their government has evolved a lot in the last 350 years but since Cromwell and the “glorious revolution” they have been essentially a consititutional government led by a Parliament made up of elected and non-elected officials.

Oh well, it’s hard to argue with that. Keep dreaming of Asterix and Obelix conquering the world then.

The problems with 2 deaths a day is they are really for nothing. No WMDs, no 9/11 link, no nuclear program, etc. so these soldiers are dying for what? Plus even though there were no iraqis in the 9/11 attacks you can be damned sure in the next 5-15 years many of the kids whose fathers were killed in this war or killed by accident after it will be lining up to commit terrorist acts on US interests. All in all the war has worked out great. :x

– Xaroc

Since this is a thread in which France-based forum members are asking idealistic Americans to read up on history…

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Ok, the thread is over, last one out kill the lights.

– Xaroc

WW2 - not a good example if you want to exemplify the US’s attitude to other nations.

Particularly since there were Jewish refugees and people representing them petitioning the US government, ceaselessly, for years, to get involved. Telling them point blank that Hitler was rounding up and killing Jews. The response from some sections of Congress was vocal approval. Not our finest hour.