Roethlisberger has said some things that suggest regret on his part. At some level he certainly understands how close he came to blowing everything. Whether he “grows up” as a result is something we will only know long-term.

As for Vick, I’m with those who feel that since he’s done his time, he’s done what’s been expected of him. I don’t think he “owes” it to anyone to send large amounts of money to animal rescues at this point. As long as he stays clean, anyway.

Dogfighting is not a symptom of a diseased mind. It’s a thing that people do that happens to be VERY FROWNED UPON by the majority of society, and accepted by a minority. I do not like what Vick did, but I do not think he’s psychotic, or evil, or irredeemable. He seems to have completely turned himself around both on and off the field and I want him to succeed.

Fresh Air had an interview with a former dogfighter who pointed out that Vick was born into a very poor family, in a very poor neighborhood, in which dogfighting was common. “It was like us guys in these urban communities, we born into negativity. We got to work our way out of it…” Vick’s done/doing that.

I think an argument could be made that dogfighting is exactly that. If torturing cats is considered a prime indicator of a developing serial killer, is it such a stretch that sending dogs to fight to the death is an indication of some mental disease? Bear in mind that I do not equate the two, nor am I calling Michael Vick a serial killer. But I would ask you to consider how you would feel if you learned that a friend or family member had a dogfighting hobby on the side for years. Would you just shrug and look away?

And how is it different then bullfighting or cockfighting, which are widely followed as well in different parts of the world? Torture and using animals for fighting sport is a different thing, as much as I hate both. So I think there are different things at work here. And as far as I know, as widespread as dog fighting has been in some places and times, no one has connected that to serial killer behavior.

Vick was caught and served his time. Even murderers get a second chance and sometimes they take full advantage of the opportunity.

As I noted in my original post above, I recognize that Vick as paid his dues to society and has earned the right to return to the NFL and society. But my argument is that none of us know what was going on in his head, and I think this is a question worth considering.

Let me put it this way: I’m cool with the guy being on my TV set playing football every Sunday, because I don’t have to deal with the guy personally. If I did, I think things would be very different, and I can understand people being a little uncertain in that regard. You’re probably correct that I shouldn’t bring up mental disease or serial killers, I have no expertise in those areas and am speaking out of turn.

This.

I will also add to that: the thing that I think redeems Michael Vick for me is that he’s not only talked about how he understands why people were so incredibly upset and distraught over the dogfighting and is sorry for causing that, but also–more importantly–understands now just how fucked up it was for him to be participating in such a heinous activity in the first place.

I’m ok with Michael Vick. He’s doing and saying the right things, and seems to be a better man than he was.

I agree with what triggercut, Talisker and others have said (though I may be a bit biased as a VT alum and having grown up in the Tidewater area near where Vick grew up - I know how bad the area he came out of is).

The main thing for me is that I really hope the guy is sincere and truly transformed. I hope all the hype and MVP talk and stuff doesn’t go to his head and suddenly, instead of maturity and humility, he starts thinking “damn, I am a badass! Screw Dungy and all those softies trying to get me to change, I’m Michael freaking Vick! I can do whatever the hell I want!” And next thing you know, he’s busted for weed in his super-sekrit fake coke bottle all over again…

Every week I watch the NFL I hope to see a highlight reel of Vick getting his head taken off. I hate him. He shouldn’t go kill himself, but it makes me sick that he’s being embraced by the fans again. Torturing animals for fun is something a sociopath does, and I don’t think you can just switch it off with an apology and donations to charity. Fuck Vick. I hope he gets a concussion this week.

It makes me sick that Ben Roethlisberger can rape a woman, pay her off, and get away with a 4 game suspension.

It makes me sick that Ray Lewis can MURDER A HUMAN BEING, and come right back to the league like nothing happened.

I love the NFL but they’re really full of shit when it comes to this stuff. If a guy sells tickets, it doesn’t matter what crimes he commits, there will always be a place for him in the league.

I’ve seen nothing that suggests Roethlisberger feels remorse for what he should actually be sorry for, raping a woman. He is remorseful that he almost blew his big money NFL career, and that he caused a distraction for his team.

The girl? Pffft. She was askin for it.

ADDENDUM: I loved watching the Patriots beat the shit out of him on Sunday. When it happens to Ryan Fitzpatrick I feel bad for him. Not Ben.

Was Roethlisberger ever charged or convicted of rape? I thought officially he was in trouble with the league for having scandalous sex in a nightclub with some young chick.

As the Kobe trial showed, no woman in her right mind would ever bring criminal charges against a very rich athlete. Which is why I think the league meted out some punishment for him.

This is the problem (from the link above)

In a March 17 letter to prosecutor Fred Bright, a lawyer for the woman asked that the rape probe be dropped. “What is obvious in looking forward is that a criminal trial would be a very intrusive personal experience for a complainant in this situation, given the extraordinary media attention that would be inevitable,” wrote attorney David Walbert. “The media coverage to date, and the efforts of the media to access our client, have been unnerving, to say the least.”

I love how upset people get about Vick still… Yeah, he did deplorable things (things he grew up with, not that it excuses anything, but culture matters). He then had the following happen…lost his career, lost all of his money (still 20 mil in debt if I remember correctly), spent 1+ years in PRISON, and had to work his way back in the league with hard work and lot of patience.

It’s not like he got the Roethlisberger treatment. Or the usual NFL player star treatment for that matter. He paid and he’s still paying (in many different ways).

But that’s not good enough for people. Because he tortured dogs. The exact same thing 95% of us participate in the US most weeks if not every day (If you eat meat from most any grocery store or restaurant, you’re part of it. If you argue this point, you aren’t well educated in the matter) with many other animals. Best conclusion I can draw is that it’s all right for some people to torture cows, chicken, pigs, etc, but not dogs. To boot, Vick has stopped torturing dogs by all accounts. Most of us are still involved in the torture and death of animals on a regular basis.

If you don’t eat meat, or you know how your meat is treated, then maybe you have a leg to stand in the moral department. Maybe…

Overall, I don’t get it. He did bad, he was punished, he worked back in from the ground up. If you can’t give a guy who appears (I say that because it’s still short term at this point) to be doing the right thing, saying the right thing, and working his ass off, at least the benefit of a second chance, you might want to check your motivations here.

The thing with Vick is he wasn’t just “involved” with dogfighting. As noted, the general cultural objection to that is just that: cultural. When viewed through the lend of his background, it’s easy to see why he may not have the “proper” civilized revulsion to the act that many people do.

However, what he did went beyond that: he was involved in the hanging, drowning, and electrocution of dogs. Needing to put an animal down is one thing – I’ve been a pet owner all my life, and have had to do that more times than I would have liked. But it’s to be done humanely. If nothing else, and you don’t want to do the full-on injection routine with a dog that’s “just” bred for fighting, at least put a bullet through the thing’s skull so it’s over quickly.

The comparison to eating meat is completely spurious. Even those of us who don’t eat only organic, free-range, yadda yadda masturbate yadda meat don’t directly participate in the torture of the animals we eat. Yes, there may be an argument that we are “morally” culpable for their behavior, but for the most part we don’t actively consider, cause, and take part in the torture of our food; we go to the supermarket, buy a shrink-wrapped pack of chicken breats, and throw them on the grill. We don’t say “ah yes, take this chicken, keep it in brutally cramped conditions, living in a wire cage covered in filth and shit so it gets foot infections and lung infections and dies an unhappy, miserable beast just so I can eat it” before we take our food home.

What Vick has done is fundamentally that. And that is what’s fucked up, and what pisses a lot of people off.

Has he earned grace for what he’s done after his crime? Of course. By all measures, he’s served his time, he’s made restitutions, he’s actively trying to distance himself (at least publicly) from what he did and denounce it for what it was. I do not begrudge him an attempt at a career comeback, and I’m willing to “forgive” him, to an extent, for what he did.

But because of the latter – going far beyond just being “involved” in dogfighting – and the mental damage that I feel must go with being able to accept the painful, unnecessary death of an animal for whose wellbeing you are responsible, I think he is an absolutely intolerable douchebag, I worry about what he might do in the future, and I enjoy it every time I see him get crushed on a football field. (Which is nothing similar to condoning the torture of animals, before anyone gets started – for starters, he’s willingly subjecting himself to the hazards of his career.)

If over time he manages to demonstrate a changed mental condition, and appears to not be inflicted with the sort of sociopathy that enjoys hurting animals, my opinion will be altered.

This is relevant!

Roger Goodell proud of Michael Vick

Seriously, there’s a video interview and text, take the time to read before responding please.

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2010/2minute_warning.htm

As much as I want to start up the debate here, I’ll just let this slide at, because you don’t specifically ask for it happen, it’s fine that your involved in the process? That’s an interesting way of looking at it…

If over time he manages to demonstrate a changed mental condition, and appears to not be inflicted with the sort of sociopathy that enjoys hurting animals, my opinion will be altered.

I think your view is very sheltered. In other countries, they do all kinds of things to animals that would fit your definition of sociopath, but it’s just the way it is there. Heck, farmers in this country to do some pretty awful things when viewed from the outside (not even the big guys were talking about above, just normal way things are done on farms). Or what about declawing animals, that’s fine, but electrocuting animals is not?

Look, I’m not agreeing with anything Vick did, but I think you’re very much over stating the situation because it’s so abhorrent to you. I’m not saying he didn’t do those things. I’m saying, that viewed in light of other cultures and other practices, I wouldn’t classify them the same as skinning cats and squirrels in the back yard (e.g. - not actual clinical sociopath signs) … Personally, I wouldn’t be around the sort of things that happen with dog fighting (the same as cock fighting, etc) and would ask anyone I knew doing that what the fuck is wrong with them. But just because I can’t grok it doesn’t mean that person is automatically a psycho.

It’s like defining cannibalism as a psychotic behavior because you don’t like it. It may be fucked up and wrong to us, but that doesn’t automatically make someone a future serial killer because they grew up that way either…

shrugs

I hope that he really sees the atrocities that he was a part of. I hope that he’s fully found both a way to forgive himself and those around him and move on. I hope for the best.

I know I’m pretty much willing to give people a second chance, even if it could all be an act…

hee hee hee

I for one think just as badly of Ben Roethlisberger; probably worse. NO RAPING PLZ KTHX.