The NFL 2011 Thread

Lorini · 2011-12-08T20:05:54.000Z

That hit by Harrison was nuts. Hopefully he’ll be suspended as well as fined.

Omniscia · 2011-12-08T20:24:32.000Z

So, I was checking my fantasy lineup for the week, and I see that Fred Davis is suspended for four weeks for recreational drug abuse.

Who does that leave for Grossman to throw to? Santana Moss?

sluggo · 2011-12-08T20:27:26.000Z

I think they could play this game for 12 quarters tonight and the Browns still wouldn’t break 10 points.

Aki · 2011-12-09T05:09:42.000Z

Lorini:

That hit by Harrison was nuts. Hopefully he’ll be suspended as well as fined.

Why? Colt McCoy was out of the pocket and scrambling and then, right before he crossed the LOS (and also just as Harrison had already initiated a perfectly good form tackle) he threw the ball. It was a great hit and the only thing that made it seem rough was due to how small McCoy is and how hard he hit the ground. The only reason a flag was thrown is that it was Harrison doing the hitting and a shrimpy white guy getting creamed (instead of, say, Michael Vick who has been regularly tattooed by defenders as the commentators sagely observe something along the lines of “he’s going to have to get used to that if he’s going to keep using his legs.”

Lorini · 2011-12-09T05:35:35.000Z

I take it you didn’t notice the direct helmet to helmet contact? Somehow I don’t agree that concussions have anything to do with size or race but whatever.

Aki · 2011-12-09T06:06:22.000Z

I suppose I should frame this response as intended for the general football discussion audience rather than Lorini since I forgot how huffy and weepy she gets whenever anybody engages her in discussion or disagrees with her about anything she posts about football.

Watch the video in real time and then again in slow motion at the end of the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDvi5vGsY90

You’ll see a few things:

Colt McCoy was a runner. By rule, defenders should be immune from all of the pansy “protect the qb” rules and the play should be treated just like a tackle against Peyton Hillis once the QB starts running as if to advance the ball.
While Harrison’s helmet does make contact with McCoy’s facemask (which is considered a part of the helmet) and therefore makes it an appropriate call on the grounds of helmet-to-helmet contact, it’s not clear that it was intentional. Instead, Harrison was in perfect “head across the bow” tackling form. Because McCoy was moving laterally across Harrison’s angle of approach and because McCoy flinched downwards at the last second so that his facemask moved into the path of Harrison’s helmet, I see this as very different from the sort of head-hunting targeting that Harrison (and others like the Falcon’s Dunta Robinson (sp?) have historically been guilty of.

I didn’t see the slo-motion reply when I was watching live last night, I thought the flag was based on the commentators erroneous statement that McCoy was a “defenseless passer.” Also, as a Seattle homer, I sort of hate myself for defending a Steeler.

Fishbreath · 2011-12-09T06:08:07.000Z

Lorini:

I take it you didn’t notice the direct helmet to helmet contact? Somehow I don’t agree that concussions have anything to do with size or race but whatever.

It was pretty flagrant, but at the same time helmet-to-helmet contact is a penalty that’s mostly called against the Steelers. Mendenhall took two hits like that that they showed in replays with nary a flag. The hit on Ben’s knees could have been a roughing-the-passer call, although that one’s a little more of a toss-up. You could probably pull a gun on Vick without getting flagged for it.

I’m fine with rules designed to penalize hits that have a greater-than-normal potential to hurt players, but man would I love to see them applied evenly.

mkozlows · 2011-12-09T06:28:07.000Z

Yeah, that clip shows a pretty blatant helmet-to-helmet hit. That’ll get called every time, whether it’s Vick or McCoy.

Erik_J · 2011-12-09T06:39:59.000Z

Fishbreath:

It was pretty flagrant, but at the same time helmet-to-helmet contact is a penalty that’s mostly called against the Steelers. Mendenhall took two hits like that that they showed in replays with nary a flag. The hit on Ben’s knees could have been a roughing-the-passer call, although that one’s a little more of a toss-up. You could probably pull a gun on Vick without getting flagged for it.

I’m fine with rules designed to penalize hits that have a greater-than-normal potential to hurt players, but man would I love to see them applied evenly.

There is a difference. That is a runner, this is a QB. A QB is going to get a flag thrown every time for something like this. The Steelers can cry all the want (and they will) but it was the proper call.

Aki · 2011-12-09T06:47:01.000Z

Actually Erik, you’re wrong. Go read the rules. You’ll see that the special rules in place to protect quarterbacks do not apply when the QB has become a runner (which McCoy clearly had in this case).

The appropriate cause for the flag was the helmet-to-helmet contact, the rule against helmet-to-helmet hits applies no matter what position the guy being hit is playing.

Fishbreath · 2011-12-09T06:55:08.000Z

Erik J.:

There is a difference. That is a runner, this is a QB. A QB is going to get a flag thrown every time for something like this.

Fishbreath:

I’m fine with rules designed to penalize hits that have a greater-than-normal potential to hurt players, but man would I love to see them applied evenly.

There’s already a call for illegal hits on QBs. It’s called roughing the passer.

Edit: and Ryan explained why that one didn’t apply.

Lorini · 2011-12-09T06:55:56.000Z

Aki:

I suppose I should frame this response as intended for the general football discussion audience rather than Lorini since I forgot how huffy and weepy she gets whenever anybody engages her in discussion or disagrees with her about anything she posts about football.

Watch the video in real time and then again in slow motion at the end of the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDvi5vGsY90

You’ll see a few things:

Colt McCoy was a runner. By rule, defenders should be immune from all of the pansy “protect the qb” rules and the play should be treated just like a tackle against Peyton Hillis once the QB starts running as if to advance the ball.

While Harrison’s helmet does make contact with McCoy’s facemask (which is considered a part of the helmet) and therefore makes it an appropriate call on the grounds of helmet-to-helmet contact, it’s not clear that it was intentional. Instead, Harrison was in perfect “head across the bow” tackling form. Because McCoy was moving laterally across Harrison’s angle of approach and because McCoy flinched downwards at the last second so that his facemask moved into the path of Harrison’s helmet, I see this as very different from the sort of head-hunting targeting that Harrison (and others like the Falcon’s Dunta Robinson (sp?) have historically been guilty of.

I didn’t see the slo-motion reply when I was watching live last night, I thought the flag was based on the commentators erroneous statement that McCoy was a “defenseless passer.” Also, as a Seattle homer, I sort of hate myself for defending a Steeler.

The flag was based on a commentator’s comment? Really? Just how stupid are you Ryan? I’m sure the refs listen to everything the commentator’s say during a game and then make a decision, sure. That makes more sense than anything else you said.

What reality do you live in anyway Ryan A? Weepy, really? Are you here in my house and I don’t know it? I have a lot of dogs, maybe you are one of them?

In the NFL intent makes no difference, stop watching so much NBA reffing and maybe you’ll actually understand the rules one day. How many times does the league have to call Harrison on helmet to helmet for it to get through his head? Clearly he doesn’t need a helmet, his skull seems thick enough.

All the name calling is just so unnecessary as I have stated in the past and will continue to state. I never start this shit but for some reason some men just can’t resist who they see as a target. My call is still that he will finally get suspended for his what his eighth or so call on this? Why don’t other even Steeler defense guys not to mention the rest of the league get these calls? Maybe it’s cuz he doesn’t seem to get it.

Wallapuctus · 2011-12-09T06:58:07.000Z

Let’s not turn this into P&R! It’s the football thread. We’re all friends, right guys?

Lorini · 2011-12-09T07:01:20.000Z

Wallapuctus:

Let’s not turn this into P&R! It’s the football thread. We’re all friends, right guys?

I’m just putting Ryan A on ignore (the only poster in this thread) and moving on. You’re right.

Shmtur · 2011-12-09T08:10:16.000Z

I like PFT’s take:

ProFootballTalk – 9 Dec 11

Harrison’s hit on McCoy could fall into gray area of rulebook

The concussion that Browns quarterback Colt McCoy apparently suffered on Thursday night came after Steelers linebacker James Harrison lowered the crown of his helmet into McCoy’s face. Based …

When the quarterback leaves the pocket, he loses the protection against low hits, and the one-step rule for roughing the passer evaporates. But all other protections apply, including the prohibition against blows to the head.

There’s more to it, it’s not completely cut and dry (go read the article!) but more signs point toward this being an illegal hit than otherwise. Given Harrison’s history, I’d be surprised if there isn’t a fine.

Walter_Yarbrough · 2011-12-09T08:26:09.000Z

Omniscia:

So, I was checking my fantasy lineup for the week, and I see that Fred Davis is suspended for four weeks for recreational drug abuse.

Who does that leave for Grossman to throw to? Santana Moss?

Blocking TE’s, and the Running backs in rotation, and a couple of rookie WR’s

Given that the Skins are facing the Pats . . . and they also lost Trent Williams . . . I can’t see any fantasy Skin worth starting.

Bill_Dungsroman · 2011-12-09T08:33:10.000Z

The issue on that hit that the PFT article points out is McCoy had not advanced beyond the LOS which meant he could still pass the ball. This means he is still a QB and not a runner and should be protected as such because the defenseless part comes from being in a position to potentially pass the ball - looking downfield, being in the process of passing the ball, etc.

Omniscia:

Who does that leave for Grossman to throw to? Santana Moss?

Actually one of Grossman’s favorite targets is Jabar Gaffney.

Fishbreath · 2011-12-09T08:36:12.000Z

The call wasn’t roughing the QB, though, it was helmet-to-helmet contact, on a hit no less violent than some hits that Mendenhall took that very same game. If helmet-to-helmet contact is going to be a penalty, people hitting running backs shouldn’t get a pass.

Bill_Dungsroman · 2011-12-09T08:40:29.000Z

Fishbreath:

The call wasn’t roughing the QB, though, it was helmet-to-helmet contact, on a hit no less violent than some hits that Mendenhall took that very same game. If helmet-to-helmet contact is going to be a penalty, people hitting running backs shouldn’t get a pass.

Do we really need to split this hair? It was a penalty either way.

Fishbreath · 2011-12-09T08:42:00.000Z

Bill Dungsroman:

Do we really need to split this hair? It was a penalty either way.

I’m not saying Harrison’s hit wasn’t. I’d just like to see the leading-with-the-helmet flag either thrown consistently or eliminated.