6141

Both Sproles and Bush are/were starting running backs as much as anyone in the Saints system. I’m willing to bet both got as many snaps as Pierre Thomas or whoever, especially since punt return and kick return are offensive plays. Sproles broke the NFL record for all-purpose yards this year and I’m guessing he didn’t do that from the bench.
I don’t think there was a better free agent deal made this year, at least not on that side of the ball.

So you’ll have to switch your paradigm to “running backs that almost exclusively run between the tackles and never even get a swing or a screen pass thrown to them” or something, if you want to exclude Sproles and Bush. Or scatbacks, as I think the term is?

6142

Incoming: Jackson/McKenzie fight over player personnel decisions. Loser:? This will be a very interesting developing situation given Jackson’s comments at the end of the season.

6143

Um, sure, if you want to count returns somehow as ‘snaps as a running back’, I can see that, but I don’t think most people would.

Bush was a part-time starter, averaging 8 starts a season for the Saints. In most seasons he carried fewer than the other guy(s) like Pierre or Deuce. If you want to say that his receiving yards should count, Bush still had less than 1000 yards combined rushing/receiving four out of five of his seasons in NO.

In 2010, the year before Bush left, he had the 5th most carries of any of their backs and the third most yards/scrimmage of their backs.

That’s why the Saints let him leave.

Sproles is a lot more pivotal as a third down back than as a starter (he only started 4 games).

All that said, I like Sproles and I think San Diego should have kept them, but again, he was not a case of a star starter going from one team to another team.

Sproles broke the NFL record for all-purpose yards this year and I’m guessing he didn’t do that from the bench.

No, he did it on special teams. =)

Or scatbacks, as I think the term is?

Third down backs. Who aren’t starters.

6144

Returns are kind of a cheap way to pile up yards. Even the bad KRs average about 20 yards per kickoff return. I’m impressed by total yards from scrimmage. Show me a running back who’s getting 2000 yards rushing and receiving combined.

I also don’t think that when we talk about running backs we are usually factoring in returns. I’m not devaluing returns, but the return position isn’t the running back position.

6145

This was my argument against Reggie Bush (if you recall from the threads when he was drafted here). He’s a great third down back, possibly the same class as Brian Westbrook was, but to be drafted #2 overall for PR/KR skills? He got paid crazy money, higher than LDT at the time IIRC.

I can point to almost any position where a guy in his prime was allowed to walk because of cost issues and then went on to have similarly stellar results at a new time. Except RB, where Faulk is the only example that comes to mind.

6146

Clinton Portis was productive for awhile with Washington. The Niners got some mileage out of Charlie Garner and Garrison Hearst. The Bears love giving away productive RBs (Cedric Benson, Thomas Jones). Marshawn Lynch and Willis McGahee need more than just this year, I suppose.

6147

I thought that too at the time but there were a lot of national writers who were convinced his ability would translate to the NFL in a way that would justify him being picked so high. John Clayton, for example, was in love with the guy. Not that Clayton is infallible, of course. ;-)

6148

As I recall a lot of pundits pointed at Barry Sanders being small as an example and thought Bush had a chance of being an every down back too.

6149

Speed doesn’t translate well to the NFL, since relative speed in college between a future NFL player and everyone else is deceiving. Very few players have crazy moves in college that work in the NFL (Barry Sanders and Vick are the only two I can think of right now). Peter Warrick was famous for his moves and washed out.

For me the damning thing about Bush, as was rehashed on here (Jesus, was it really like 6 years ago?), was that he wasn’t even the primary ball carrier on his own team. For some amusement, here’s the NFL draft thread when Bush was drafted.

I think Bush is actually a talented player, and his receptions back that up, but as I said then, it just meant he was more of a Brian Westbrook style of player, not a between the tackles runner. You don’t use that pick on a guy that’s an exceptional returner but mediocre running back.

And Bush isn’t exactly pint sized, dude is 6’ and 200 pounds. That’s not huge, but he’s not exactly Warrick Dunn either.

EDIT:
Hey, I said a bunch of this stuff…six years ago.

Jesus, guess I’m not the new guy on QT3 anymore.

6150

You might want to check on your reason for Bush and Sproles not “starting”. For Bush in 2010 it was injuries and coming back from injury. They only let Bush go after they understood they could get Sproles IIRC. I also agree that Bush wasn’t a fantastic running back or even a really good player. Sproles, however has been amazing this year. I might not have made my point too clear, I brought up kick and punt returns for two reasons:

  1. As a measure of “total value” of the player. If you don’t think Sproles was the best offensive free agent signing for 2011, I’d love to hear who was better. And how a “just a third down back who isn’t even a starter” could be the best free agent signing, otherwise. The man is a goddamn nightmare to defend on any down, ask any NFL DC. And he’s taking snaps at all downs, first and second too.
  2. During at least the three past seasons, the Saints hasn’t had a No1 running back. Just as they haven’t had a no1 receiver. That’s not how they play. So being a “starter” for the Saints doesn’t even mean you’ll get the most snaps in that game. It means even less if you’re a running back since they’re a really pass-happy team. Some quarters they go a lot to Thomas, the next they’ll use Sproles. Or Ingram. Or Ivory. Or just say fuck it and go all-out passing.

Just because no single Saints running back is posting crazy numbers, doesn’t mean the Saints doesn’t have a great running attack. With Sproles, Thomas and Ivory (or Ingram) all available, they certainly do. That they might have the best OL in the NFL doesn’t hurt them there, of course.

Oh, and btw. The Saints other kick returner is Pierre Thomas. So in Sean Peytons system it seems that running backs are expected to be able to return kicks, too.

6151

I would compare him more to Dave Megget, kind of a hybrid RB/receiver. The NFL is very rigid about positions in a lot of ways, and guys who don’t fit a prototypical mold often get misused. Bush was actually really fortunate to get drafted by Payton and the Saints, because they knew how to use him. I’ve been impressed by how well he’s done in Miami, because they are trying (and he is trying) to make him a regular between-the-tackles RB. But that’s really not what he’s good for. He and Sproles are not traditional pro-set or I-back RBs. Doesn’t make them any less valuable to an offense, jut means dumb coaches can’t use them.

Was Bush worth the pick? I dunno, I’m not gonna second guess a team after they win a Super Bowl.

6152

I don’t think, based on his NFL career so far, Bush was worth the second overall pick. But he’s a good player and not a bust.

Of course you have to put the pick in context of who else was available that year. I’m not sure that anyone else in the top ten picks of 2006 is better by a wide margin.

I think it’s fair to say Bush was an ok pick but he hasn’t lived up to expectations.

6153

Reggie Bush as he’s showing as of late in Miami he can be a full-time RB. Which he kind of was in New Orleans, same with Darren Sproles. It’s just the system New Orleans runs, they won’t have a thousand yard rusher since they just like to fling the ball in the air. Mark Ingram probably could’ve been that guy this year but they just throw it so much he doesn’t have a chance to prove his worth. So where was I going with this post? I have no bloody idea, just to say that Bush hasn’t been horrible, it was the system he was in and he was never overrated, just overpaid for his time in New Orleans.

6154

Barring a sudden change in thinking, it sounds like Jeff Fisher will be back next year either with St. Louis or Miami. Miami is reportedly offering more money, but St. Louis had Bradford already, the #2 pick, and probably a better management structure going forward.

Unless one of the other vacancies jumps in, but at this point Tampa, Jacksonville, and Kansas City seem more focused on cheaper coordinator options.

6155

And that’s exactly it. O-Line is so important to an offenses performance and is overlooked constantly by media and fans. Any time you see a good quarter back, you probably have an awesome O-line. Right now, Saints have the best O-line in football. Another under the radar thing they have is excellent coaching. You can see the effective game planning and play calling every time they play.

This coming from a steeler fan. Saints are my Favorite to represent the NFC this year.

6156

I can’t really pick a favourite in the NFC. All three top teams are startlingly one-dimensional. Unfortunately, as a Niner fan, I don’t think they stack up well with the Saints because the Niners have the best run defense in the league but are weak in coverage, and the Saints defense, while not great, isn’t as spectacularly terrible as the Patriots or Packers so it’s unlikely they can win a shootout. As much as I want the Niners to win and the Patriots to lose, Saints-Packers and Packers/Saints-Patriots could be some amazing offensive games. Like the first half of the Rose Bowl.

6157

Packers/Pats will not be in the superbowl this year. Defenses that bad cannot win championships. The packers D I can see having a turnaround in the playoffs, but NE’s D will not get them past Pit or Bal.

(9’ers will be facing NO- while giants travel to GB, and that’s gonna be a tough test. The Saints should be able to out coach and out talent the basic 49’ers, but either way, the winner of this game beats Green bay in the conference finals.

6158

Actually, my impression is different. My impression is that overall Baltimore does not win with its offense. So NE-Baltimore would be strength vs. strength, and hence a very interesting – and to my mind difficult to predict – game. Pittsburgh may be a bit different – although maybe not. I think their offense is more potent than the Ravens, and thus more likely to be the deal-breaker in a game with NE. I think NE, for all it’s defensive faults, matches up better with Bal’imer then with the Steelers.

6159

I love declaratory statements. They’re so…final.

6160

This morning Chris Mortenson of ESPN is reporting that McKenzie is considering firing Hue Jackson, so in this case the loser would be the guy who isn’t there anymore. I don’t agree with the firing, the team has been through way way too many changes. He could certainly fire him because giving up the draft picks for Palmer was stupid, but now that McKenzie is there, that won’t happen again, so why not bury the past and move forward?