The North Korea Thread

Try to spread the shit as far as you want GrinR, but it happened on his watch, and it lands squarely at Bush’s feet.

So let’s immediate blame Clinton for WTC1 and Somalia, right?

Oh shit Ben, you done fucked up now. You used WJC’s name in vain. This thread is OVER!

Listen, stupid, maybe you hadn’t noticed - It doesn’t matter whose “watch” this shit happens under. If a Democrat wins in '08, and the next day Iran finishes their secret nuke program and testfires one, your dumb ass will still be thinking blue and red while I’m sitting here staring at the armageddon clock.

I. Do. Not. Care. About. George. Bush. OR. Bill. Clinton.

Get that through your thick fucking skull before you write anything more to me. Thanks.

Shit, I didn’t even know there was a Biggest Lie contest going on, and now here you are completely dominating the category. Next time at least let us think we have a chance.

Now the economic superpowers of the world will raise North Korea and it’s people from third world status. That’s pretty much the only feasible option right? The hebrew population of North Korea isn’t high enough to really excite the neocons.

I’m curious about the reaction in South Korea.

Good lord, Mister McGriddle pipes up with another meaningless zinger. What a surprise.

Try content next time, Griddles.

So, uh, why did you mention Clinton like you did up above?

Anyway, both Clinton and Bush have done about what they could, which was very little. There’s very few ways of effectively putting pressure on North Korea, and now even the Chinese aren’t willing to stand up for them. Only military action remains as an option, and that’s not realistic.

So, how crazy do we think Kim Jong-Il is?
Hopefully he’s crazy enough to use nuclear escalation as a means to extract more generous concessions from the rich countries around him, but not so nutty as to actually lob a nuke in the direction of Japan. Hopefully he’s just a crazy-like-a-fox character who’s trying to present a credible nuclear threat without actually firing one. Because if he did lob a nuclear missile, even just into the ocean, wouldn’t that be an easy casus belli for his neighbors to come down on NK like a ton of bricks?

What I want to know is when’s China going to say “Cut this shit out”. They certainly don’t want a remilitarized and nuclear Japan to emerge in response to NK’s escalation.

Because he, like Bush after him, both insist on a diplomacy that is clearly ineffectual. Mentioning Clinton (or Bush) shouldn’t instantly mean support or derision of them.

He is stone-cold nuts. You can’t do any research (from any sources, aside from the KCNA) without arriving at that conclusion. Bat shit crazy.

If anyone invaded militarily, and he stood any chance of losing, he’d absolutely use everything on hand. Frankly, I fully believe he’ll nuke something anyway within my lifetime (given time).

If they are the same, why mention only one in the manner you did?

Anyway, I haven’t seen any alternatives offered by anyone in the American political establishment. What else do you think they should have done, and who agrees with you?

I dont recall many people wanting to carpet bomb france about 10 years ago when they set off nukes in the pacific.

We should bomb ourselves into the stone age to prevent ourselves from ever getting the bomb.

The latest Atlantic has an article by Robert Kaplan, I think it’s called “When North Korea Falls.” Kaplan is interesting, if nothing else, and this article has some stuff in it worth pondering. It’s a bit dodgy in spots but his basic thrust is that North Korea (or the “Kim Family Regime” (KFR) as he calls it) is manipulating events mostly to improve North Korea’s bargaining power with China. According to Kaplan, in the long run it’s Beijing that matters to Pyongyang, not Seoul or Washington or Tokyo really.

According to Kaplan’s thesis, the North Koreans will try to get American recognition and improved status by continuous escalation. Kaplan sees them as a failing regime (stage three or four of a seven stage spiral into destruction that he lays out) that is gambling on the asymmetrical nature of what they can do vis a vis what the United States can do. In this vision, they’ll escalate step by step until they get a military response from the US, after which they’ll respond with a brief but dramatic military response of their own, thus leaving the US in the position of negotiating with Pyongyang or precipitating a full-scale war on the peninsula. The example Kaplan uses is a North Korean nuclear test or equivalent followed by a US military strike at their nuclear facilities, followed by a brief artillery barrage of Seoul, after which the North Koreans simply…stop. This, Kaplan says, would put the US in a “what now, Lieutenant?” situation, where no action is really workable.

Anyhow, he says that when North Korea dissolves, China will be the real winner, and that South Korea would not want to actually reunify because it would bankrupt them. Interesting article, if a bit weird in spots.

Yeah, but this is a year into Bush’s second term, not the next day after an election. You immediately tried to blame someone long since removed from power for something that happened while Bush sat on the throne.

Because no one is concerned that France’s military motivations?

I honestly don’t think the North Korenas will use a nuke unless they are seriously provoked.

Now that they have nukes the best thing to do would be to try and get them to become responisible members of the world stage. Try the carrot instead of the stick for a change.

They’re not even responsible enough to feed their people, how can you expect them to become “responsible members of the world stage”?

North Koreans are reduced to eating grass while their insane dictator pours millions into a nuclear program.

Dude, it’s not like this happened in year one or year two of Bush’s presidency.
And it totally matters under whose watch this shit happens, if you hire a watch guard and your place keeps getting robbed under his watch, maybe you need to hire a new watch guard.

King Jong is completely out of touch with reality so the stick just doesn’t work against him. He just doesn’t care. If you push him too far he is going to use those nukes. This just makes me think that trying to include North Korea in the global economy makes more sense.

You AMericans must never forget that your best weapon when it comes to winning hearts and minds isn’t the US army- it’s fucking McDonalds.