The North Korea Thread

/shrug, not my experience, as I haven’t been in the target audience. I’m talking about tone, perspective, attitudes, and the like, based on historical events. Look at the Community Action Programs of the LBJ era. White, middle-class bureaucrats went into inner cities to improve the lot of the poor. They had zero understanding of the culture, expectations, or life experiences of the people they were trying to help. Result? Total failure. Look at current environmental and “buy local” movements that urge people to foresake box stores and gasoline engines in favor of local options and electrics/hybrids that few of the working class can afford. Etc.

Look, I’m not saying the liberal programs implemented since the New Deal aren’t good–they are. And I’m not saying the Democrats or liberals in general aren’t doing good things, and for the right reasons–by and large, they are. They are, though, and have been, largely tone-deaf too often, and too often have mistaken their own cultural proclivities for universal values. It’s pretty well documented in the history of the Progressive movement, the Great Society, and every other social crusade in the 20th century.

This sounds like stereotypical sound bites. I could say the same thing about the “other” side trying to force their beliefs on others and treating anyone not like them like useless garbage which gets us where exactly?

Fwiw, while I wouldn’t call myself an isolationist, I get sick and tired of the U.S. Trying to be the world’s police force. I’m all in favor of assisting with UN programs and development in third world nations, but I would agree if you said there’s an awful lot of work we could be doing right in our backyard. We have a lot of our people going hungry, or in need of help in some way, but it job training or education, or homes, or what have you. I’d like to see us spend a little on our own infrastructure (and give people training so they can get jobs to build that infrastructure).

Obama and Clinton both had plans to shore up infrastructure. Trump at one point said he had one too, but he says a lot of different things from one day to the next… Even if the return on investment means a net gain for everyone involved, initially at least you’re going to have to pay for it using taxes or through tax “repatriation”. Frankly I don’t think Congress wants to be associated with any program that might make Democrats look better in the public eye than themselves; and if a program has the word “tax” in it somewhere, then the Republicans likely will have an easy time blocking it.

As for failing social programs in the 60s and 70s, you have to remember that a lot of the leadership was assassinated.

Eh? I have no idea what you are going on about, really. It’s not about some ideological litmus test, or tit-for-tat accusations. And it’s not an indictment of liberal programs, or anything of the sort. But if you want to believe that every social program that we’ve ever rolled out has been entirely altruistic, perfectly culturally sensitive, and excellently crafted to take into account the interests and needs of the target population, by all means, do so. But that’s not supported by the evidence.

Look, the people most interested in social programs in the USA, since the Progressive era, have also been the ones with the most education, the most technical expertise, and the most sincere desire to improve the lives of other people. No argument there. But this group of people, historically, has also demonstrated, time and again, that they have difficulty understanding why someone might not want to “be helped,” if that help involves, say, ditching religious practices, abandoning informal and perhaps illegal community organizations that are nonetheless effective, giving up somewhat “dirty” but very effective tools of political power (the ward system, for example, in cities in the early 20th century), or the like.

What happens is that well-meaning people who sincerely are trying to do good often have trouble conceptualizing a community that has different values from theirs. Ironically, it has been easier sometimes to gain such understanding, and to act more sensitively, when dealing with non-white communities, because people going in to the process tend to intuitively understand they have to do more research. When dealing with white working class communities, though, there is the opposite assumption, based on a complete unwillingness to acknowledge how class differences can override racial or (assumed) cultural homogeneity. In other words, the white technocrats assume other white people are just like them/want to be just like them, but are just poorer/less advantaged, and thus, helping them is simply a matter of making their environment more like that of the helpers. This completely ignores what the community being assisted actually wants, and inspires not admiration, but resentment.

It’s not total, and it’s not all the time. And the solution is more help, not less, but help developed with an eye towards figuring out what people actually want, in terms of economic, education, and social assistance. It also will require a lot more money and time, because it’s not a one size fits all process.

That’s really my main point, that the people often ridiculed as Trump voters ended up that way often because in their minds, the only help they could see from politicians, social workers, or whatever was bound up in condescension, requirements to change their cultural and social mores, and preconditions that made them feel like they were somehow the problem, and not part of the solution.

I’m not sure how you go from that to your accusations, but, eh, w/e.

Oh, yeah, there’s a very strong argument to be made that charity begins at home, but it is of course complex, because isolationism or interventionism are easier to understand than a balanced foreign policy. And I agree, infrastructure is a key part of domestic investment, or should be. But as we all know, while billions for military spending or overseas aid is ok, a few million spent on Americans at home is somehow socialism.

I total agreed with Reno and you traditional GOP conservatives were internationalist and quite globalist. I’m unapologetic about it. There was an alliance of convenience between religious conservative and main street/wall street Republican. We agree to go along with their anti-abortion, pro-religious views, if they supported our free trade, and pro-business agenda. We were united in a belief in smaller federal government and giving more power to state and local government.

There has been anti-immigrant, nationalist, and racist elements in the Republican party ever since the days of George Wallace. Which various Republican courted in various ways such as using dog whistles. At a national level, there wasn’t much trust between the wings, because on many issues the nationalist and the internationalist are diametrically opposed. The nationalist, were crappy party members, they generally didn’t vote, almost never contributed money, and said many embarrassing (racists) thing.

Starting to some extent with the Tea Party , but mostly with Trump, the nationalist wing becomes the dominant wing of the party. I stopped being a Republican the day Trump won.

You are right neither Party has worked with these people. I know I don’t have an answer that they want to hear. Lower your expectations, move to place where there is work, learn new skills, stay in school, stay married, don’t have kids if you can’t afford them, don’t do drugs, stop looking at the government to give you a job. It is the same Republican answer we gave to minorities in inner cities in the 60-80s. It is actually great advice, but a hell of a lot easier to give than to get people to actually follow it.

The Democrat party answer is, you been victimized, I’ll set up a lot of programs to give you what I think you need. This approach has only worked slightly better than Republican approach, but it ihas been a hell of a lot more expensive.

I wish there was better answer than give them Oxy and disability checks but damned if I know what it is.

Again, what example do you have of this forced help with requirement to abandon religion? Be specific, what group and what program(s)?

Driving on the way back I wonder how much of this is true. In the sense that I think people might over exaggerate the rise of Trump as being a profound shift among Republicans and not partly a shift and partly inertia.

My county votes something like 80% Republican in elections. Of those something close to 48% vote party line - half of the Republican electorate doesn’t even bother to understand the slightest nuances of the issues they are voting on or the personalities or positions of the politicians they are electing. They would have voted for Jeb. They would have voted for Rubio. They would have voted for Kasich. They would have voted for Carson. And in every case the “story” of the rise of this or that politician to power and what that would have told about said electorate would have been “true”.

If Hillary Clinton had won we’d have seen a consensus about how The First Female President had Changed American Politics Forever. If Jeb Bush had won we’d be talking about a Clinton/Bush dynasty and wondering when P.Bush and Chelsea would take up the mantles of power. People talk about the Rise of Trump and what this means for the country, but as close as the primary was I wonder instead if the story is the collapse of the Republican party as an effective political force. Trump only won 44% of the Primary Vote and the nomination as the beneficiary of an increasingly mediocre and inept competition that were in many ways reflects the literal incompetence of the entire party. Even now Trump’s useless policies are utterly stymied by a party that control all three branches of government yet is still incapable of governing.

It’s true Trump has given a platform for all kinds of nativist and reactionary sentiment, but it’s still not clear to me how far reaching this is; his audiences are small, his supporters the most ignorant and uninformed. I don’t see or hear among the conservatives I know anything like a “sea-change” of their view of the world.

I think Trump did tap into something but his success is as much a failure of the existing political system as a reflection of some widespread casus belli among the electorate.

I think that what it’s done is show that you don’t need a sea-change… that for some truly absurd percentage of them, it’s absolutely pure partisanship.

There are people who will vote for “their party” even when it’s message changes 180 degrees. They will rail against perceived authoritarianism with Obama, only to embrace ACTUAL authoritarian policy when presented by the GOP. There are no actual principles at play. There is no actual worldview that they are basing these things upon. It’s degenerated into pure partisan political combat. It’s like a spectator sport. Their views of politics have degenerated to simply rooting for a team.

Again, this is not a criticism of these people, or these programs, though their successes were often modest. It’s simply acknowledging that it is always very difficult to offer assistance without also at the same time pushing a cultural agenda. If you push that agenda too far, the assistance gets rejected and the attempt at help fails.

Without writing a book on it here and now, here are some bullet points:

Jane Addams and Hull House, and the settlement houses of the so-called Progressive period (1889-1920): Teaching the immigrants and poor hygiene, sanitation, and sobriety, but also undercutting Catholic traditions, old world cultural norms and family values, and completely ignoring the incompatibility of middle-class WASP cultural norms with working class incomes and needs. Irish and Italian communities were particularly affected. The movement in general was highly motivated by Protestant religious thought, and by Victorian attitudes towards class.

City Reform: During the same period, the destruction of the old ward system by Progressives was motivated by the admirable goals of improving efficiency and ending corruption. The net effect, though, was to strip the poor of their only real political power, by destroying the admittedly corrupt ward bosses. The ward bosses had served as job providers, enforcers, lenders, and sounding boards for their communities, in exchange, yes, for graft and coerced votes. When they went away, the cities were redrawn into fewer, larger districts where the poor’s voting power was diluted, and with city manager structures that served the interests of business and the affluent, not the poor and the immigrant communities. The reformers assumed that because they wanted it to be easier to do business, and to not have to pay bribes, that everyone would benefit from the changes. While in the long run, yes, these changes were probably good, the were bad in the short term because the reformers neglected to consider the impact on the very people they said they were helping.

The New Deal: While mostly consisting of broader, more national programs, the New Deal initiatives played out locally. In addition to pervasive racism, which limited the impact of most programs on non-white communities, the design and implementation of such programs as the Agricultural Adjustment Act and the Rural Electrification Act were in the hands of Washington technocrats who, while well-meaning, often had little understanding of the culture and daily lives of people in rural America. The AAA in particular undercut a lot of traditional farming culture and values in its bureaucratic approach to farming and supply and demand, and sparked a fair bit of opposition across the board.

The Great Society: Johnson’s “war on poverty” used the idea of community action programs to “elevate” the urban and rural poor was vastly expensive, enthusiastically supported by its creators, and ultimately unsuccessful. The core idea was to educate, train, and acculturate people out of poverty by making them, in effect, middle class in outlook and habit. Instead, the technical and educational aspects ran into the cultural resistance of communities to outsiders who, being largely white, middle class, affluent, and educated, had no real connection to or understanding of the communities in which they operated. Great things came out of this—Food Stamps, Medicare, Head Start, PBS, etc.—but much of the lack of success ultimately can be attributed to the tone deaf nature of the programs in dealing with local cultures.

The Equal Rights Amendment: Passed in 1972, the Amendment would have put specific language in the Constitution prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender. It garnered 35 of the required 38 state ratifications by by 1977, but though the deadline was extended ultimately to 1982, it failed to pass and faded away. One big reason, yes, was the mobilization of conservative opposition around Phyllis Schlafly , who built a coalition of anti-abortion activists, Catholics, anti-pornography crusaders, and social conservatives to paint the ERA as a socialist measure that would destroy protections for women like alimony and child support, and would vastly increase prostitution and other vice. But the big problem that killed the ERA was more the fault of its supporters, like the National Organization for Women. NOW represented, mostly, white, professional, more educated and affluent women who saw equality in the workforce as a path to success in professional fields. Trouble was, these women had difficulty relating to or communicating to women who were not in the same situation. Working women, rural women, un-or undereducated women, single mothers, all of these groups faced a very different future in their minds if ERA passed. No alimony, no child support, forced to work in crappy jobs like their husbands or boyfriends—these women lived in a different world from lawyers and business execs. The ERA, I’m convinced, was a good amendment, but the lack of sensitivity towards working class women on the part of its supporters doomed it by allowing the conservatives to drive a huge wedge between women.

People are learning; there are tons of local programs that are very sensitive to local concerns, and don’t try to mix the preaching in with the help. But at the national level we are talking about, in terms of the political parties, this sort of Tarzan and the natives approach is all too common. Real assistance has to take into account the people being helped, and the national parties have not been terribly good at this. The solution lies in local efforts, funded by the national purse, I think, but giving up that cultural control is hard for people, whether consciously or unconsciously.

You said this was happening today. What are the today examples. Looking for this:

… I sort of give up. You seem devoted to the idea that every single program to aid people is handled perfectly, that there are no adverse aspects to anything, and that everyone involved in any sort of assistance is totally culturally aware, sensitive, and deeply committed to diversity and pluralism. Simply looking at the fallibility of public officials and private organizations of any sort should give you pause but, hey, whatever.

Today? As I said, as the government has pulled back or is pulling back from a lot of national programs, the local forces are picking up the slack, and they are always more in tune, and if they had proper funding could do the job better. At the national level, though, just look at the Democratic party and the last campaign for president. Totally ignored rural white America, didn’t engage with people who disagreed with them, preferring to dismiss them as unnecessary rather than try to sway them. Paid no attention to the needs of rust belt workers or people displaced by globalization, instead preferring to tap the same streams of support from people who already had successfully navigated the global economy. The Democrats generally approached race, class, and gener from the perspective of process, not culture; the pervasive idea was not diversity in reality but an assumption of sameness. Deep down, the idea was everyone wants to be like “us,” with “us” being defined by the elites. The GOP was not better, the mainstream party. They refused to look into why people in the heartland were pissed, or at what. They just trotted out whatever shibboleths they had on hand that the elites felt would resonate. When they didn’t, Trump swooped in.

I am very much a social liberal, and a more or less middle of the road progressive type on economic issues; my stands on international affairs vary but are mostly utilitarian. I’m naturally sympathetic to most liberal or progressive causes I come across. But take environmentalism. I fully endorse most programs to enhance, clean up, preserve, and restore our environment. But the approaches taken by so many groups, national and even local, are counter-productive. Attacking cars in communities that were designed around driving, and where no one has any other viable options. Attacking box stores, where no one but the elites can afford to shop anywhere else. Attacking big agribusiness, where few have the money to feed their families on organic, localvore food. It’s the liberalism of an elite that lacks FDR’s sense of noblesse oblige, and is tone deaf. Going after coal was the right thing to do, at the national level. Going after coal in such a way that it pretty much said “fuck you” to the people who have depended on it for their livelihoods, and without going after the coal companies for their blackmailing of their workers and their communities, was short-sighted in the way I’m talking about.

Anyhow, I’m done on this topic. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there is a legion of enormously effective, completely culturally aware, selfless altruistic bureaucrats out there implementing perfect aid programs against the opposition of perfidious troglodytes (well, the latter do exist, to be sure). Maybe the only reason aid and assistance programs has failed has been right-wing opposition. But I doubt it. Until we, on the progressive side, realize we are part of the problem sometimes, we can’t ever really do what we need to do.

You keep saying that simply because you’re unable or unable to give an example. You’re giving talking points I’ve heard before but exactly like before no one can ever give examples. Why is that? Why can’t you give even one example of an ongoing program that offers aid unfairly in a way that disadvantaged whites are required to give up their religious practices?

We can’t fix the past but we can’t address the present either by targeting generalities.

I’m also not making any assumptions about your liberalism. It would be nice if you would stop assuming why I’m asking for what I’m asking for too.

Hmm, I never claimed what you are claiming, though it did happen in the previous century for sure. I never said there are ongoing programs today that force people to change their religious actions (outside of legal restrictions on certain acts, of course). All I’ve been saying is that attempts to better society based on one’s own conception of progress or whatnot will not be successful unless you can get people to buy into your vision, and that all too often people assume their vision is the only one, and have zero interest in finding out what the people they are targeting actually think about things.

I’ve been talking, all along, about macro-level attitudes of elites towards non-elites, and the problems specifically the Democrats have been having in reaching a huge swath of the country. I am arguing, and you can certainly disagree, that part of the problem is a blindness to the need to actually sell ideas that the elite feels are self-evident, and to do so in a way that takes into account cultural differences. Same sex marriage, access to reproductive care including abortion, public financial assistance, and health care (all things I strongly support in terms of public funding and access) have HUGE cultural implications, and the people trying to make progress here have all too often dropped the ball, today too, in selling things to the section of the population that doesn’t intuitively accept their arguments. That’s all.

And I’m not assuming anything about why your asking what you are asking. I’m simply trying to process your visceral hostility.

Well yes you are. I ask for examples, and you claim that means I think all programs are great. You say the same is happening today, and I ask who and where, and you give me a large post on past attempts and a history lesson. I ask about your claim about “ditching”, your word, religion or religious practices in order to use these services, and I say okay which services are we talking about… you tell me about your liberalism and presumably what you think I think about ALL government programs.

So far in I’ve heard popular talking points I’ve heard before but no real examples of what’s happening today so we can actually try and address it. The difference now is you’re not some family member or co-worker going off on programs they don’t only not use but know no one who does use them or works for a given programs with not only zero experience in this field but no knowledge about it either. So I’m asking again since you believe this is a problem today so I assume it’s not based on nothing.

But again we can’t address generalities like those elite liberals treat poor people who use their services badly and take away their religion.

How about that North Korea?

You keep bringing that up. But where are the examples? Be specific.

I wanted to both comment that you give great examples, and you really have done your homework. It’s a pleasure to read your analysis & thought that you put into this.

While reading yours, I can’t help but of another local example that is plaguing our society and is creating a more cultural divide and that is of schools. Let me expand a bit:

Counties put out local bonds to “build a new school” and it’s always in a new affluent area, where all these new houses are going in. The schools built in the last decade are simply amazing. They have all these amenities like computer rooms, real theater production areas, nice sports fields, locker rooms and all these accouterments surrounding these.

In contrast, all the existing schools in the area immediately adjacent to where these new schools are being built are old, dilapidated, the theater is the gym and there are no locker rooms - you can use the restrooms down the hall. The sports fields are pockmarked grassy fields with a few wooden benches that give you splinters when you sit down.

Think about how this makes the people in the older neighborhoods feel. They looked at that bond measure and thought “oh they’re going to refurbish all the existing schools”. What that really meant is they put in a new security cameras, or seismic upgrades or new heating systems but didn’t change anything else.

It gives the people of these older neighborhoods a feeling of neglect, and they become resentful. I live in a rural area where our school was built in 1980 and it shows its age. That may not seem like very old, but it shows its age with 41% minority (mostly hispanic) enrollment,

While not as powerful as some of your examples, I think this is a more local event that is occurring today and is disenfranchising many people. It’s just another example where people see some other group getting some sort of benefit and they aren’t getting anything.

We had to invite a mass murderer because of North Korea. Because they’re totally a factor, it has nothing to do with hotels.

Also he probably wont come because he got invited to Russia.