Thanks!
I would advise watching a youtube playthrough or two…there are a few good ones. Not too complicated, but a few concepts can be confusing. This is a pretty helpful one (part one of three).
Anyone else played through the Skinsaw Murders yet? Having read about this game on RPS and this forum I picked up the base set and within 24 hours had ordered all expansions. Even solo this is so much fun!
The balance is grinding my gears a little bit though. I’m finding it way too easy to progress through all the missions with Seelah the Paladin, yet noone seems to think she’s that overpowered from what I can gather. Perhaps the challenge level rises when you add in more players and locations?
Really hope this game gets continued support beyond the planned adventure packs or even some Nightmare Decks a la Lord of the Rings LCG. (Another newly acquired addiction)
card sweetness :D i just like these card games art so much.
Also, the designer just released a revised rulebook.
http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/PZO6000-Rulebook.zip
I’ve not yet read it, though he said the campaign rules at the end are still the old rules.
I strongly suspect that after they finish Rise of the Runelords they’ll release another base set with a different Adventure Path (probably the next one in the series but maybe not) as the source material. It just seems logical. And yes, we’re midway through the Skinsaw Murders and having a grand old time. I’d say it’s overall been harder so far than previous adventures, as one might expect, but we’ve still yet to lose a scenario or a character. I think you may just have lucked into a character that’s particularly well suited for soloing - all the characters are really good at some aspects of the game but terrible at others so with more people and more locations you get a wider range of both capabilities and challenges.
So, another adaptation of an existing Pathfinder adventure path, but -not- the next one in the Adventure Path series. Interesting.
Just wanted to say thanks for this link. As I mentioned in the other thread, I’ve seen a lot of buzz about Pathfinder and didn’t really understand why it was so popular. This video went a long way towards explaining that. Still need to watch the other part(s), but I almost felt the excitement from playing when the big boss came out twice early on.
Prepare for a plethora of questions:
So are all the adventure packs basically 5 scenarios (and nothing else)? If I didn’t expect to play with more than a few people at a time, is the character add-on pack recommended to buy immediately for the different classes? Do you ever do anything in the scenarios other than trying to hunt down the big boss? If not, do the scenarios feel different enough to keep things interesting? Are most folks sleeving their cards (like Chaplin’s setup) or are the cards pretty wear-resistant?
If I can get my wife to watch the same video, and she’s interested enough, I can definitely see us giving it a go.
I think the extra classes are very much worth it. They are unique and give a fair bit of re-playability beyond the system mechanics.
The scenarios add more of everything. More critters, more loot, more upgrade opportunities, and more story beats. And of course more difficulty as the campaign progresses. It is a fairly unique game in that the expansions are part of the root mechanics of progression. Most board game expansions are just “more” only in it gives more variables to do the same thing. In Pathfinder you are mechanically doing similar things, but you are progressing in a campaign as you level up and fight meaner things for nicer loot. Pathfinder really is best thought of as a 1200 card game that is being released a bit at a time over a year rather than a core game with expansions.
So does that mean that new characters couldn’t (or shouldn’t) jump adventure packs? For example, if I really like scenario 3 in deck 4 but want to create a new character, I can’t do that?
Based on what you’re saying, it sounds like the answer to this question:
Do you ever do anything in the scenarios other than trying to hunt down the big boss?
…is no, right?
You do have goals other than ‘hunt the boss’. There is a scenario in pack 1 that requires you to recruit an ally from each location to close it. That is the one I immediately rememeber without giving away cool spoilers. Find Villain and defeat while all locations are closed certainly is a well used goal for most for scenarios.
Gedd, one of the problems with the game – I think I mentioned this in my review, but I’m not certain – is that you’re going to have to juggle several characters for several players and it’s going to be a pain to keep them together in terms of advancing through the scenarios. It’s very much like managing a group for a tabletop RPG. You know how it goes: that dude’s cleric wasn’t here last week, but now we’ve gained two levels at the monastery and moved on to the dragon cave and so when that dude shows up next week to play his cleric, he’s going to be behind the power curve and no one’s going to want to go back and play the monastery again. That sort of thing.
I’ve been playing solitaire to advance characters for players who might want to jump in with our more advanced characters, but it’s still a handful. Since your box of cards morphs persistently, it’s going to be an issue for mere mortals who can’t always cobble together the same group.
The scenarios in the base set are indeed “hunt the boss”, with the exception of the ally gathering scenario Dreamshadow mentions. Different bosses have different “flavors”, and their henchmen can also mix it up. For instance, the second boss comes with a bunch of poison traps, so get ready to make fortitude rolls. There’s a pack of exploding goblins in a later mission that can pepper a location with AOE damage when you kill them. The first add-on, Skinsaw Murders, does some pretty cool things to mix it up even more. Keep in mind also that each location – every pile of cards is a location – has special rules. So describing each scenario as “hunt the boss” is misleadingly reductionist.
BTW, I just realized last night that when you find the villain, every character at an open location can try to temporarily close his or her location for the villain battle. HOW DID I MISS THAT RULE THROUGH SO MANY GAMES???
-Tom
I think the rules are actually pretty complete, and good, but they are organized in an odd way, making this sort of rule easy to overlook. Gedd, I watched those videos before I bought the game, and I felt as if I pretty much knew how to play, for the most part, after watching them, and before I read the rules. It’s very much like having someone who is good at explaining game rules show you how to play.
Thanks for the continued feedback.
Tom, I went back and read your review (plus skimmed the preview of Skinsaw Murders). I think the thing that worries me most in reading them is your comments about the limited number of reward cards available. If I understand correctly, you’re saying that when you complete the adventure deck in the base game, there’s only one reward card? So if you’re rolling with a group of 6, 5 players don’t get the final reward? And even if they go back and replay the adventure solo, then get back together, they wouldn’t be able to all use reward because there’s only one card? Is that really right? Seems like a terrible decision by the developer if so (and even worse if the expansion makes the same error).
Gedd, one of the problems with the game – I think I mentioned this in my review, but I’m not certain – is that you’re going to have to juggle several characters for several players and it’s going to be a pain to keep them together in terms of advancing through the scenarios.
Without having read the rules yet, is it just impossible (or maybe unconscionable) to twink (for lack of a better term) a character who is behind to bring them up to the group’s level if they missed a week or something? I know it would probably be somewhat disappointing for that character/player to miss out on the experience of completing a scenario or two and actually earning it, but if you don’t buy into the mentality that every card or character upgrade must be earned through play, could you not just agree as a group to give that character the items/upgrades they need for the sake of keeping the group together? Would it not also be possible to make this more random group friendly by having premades at every scenario/adventure level that people could just grab and go with and forget the persistence when the environment doesn’t suit it?
You know how it goes: that dude’s cleric wasn’t here last week, but now we’ve gained two levels at the monastery and moved on to the dragon cave and so when that dude shows up next week to play his cleric, he’s going to be behind the power curve and no one’s going to want to go back and play the monastery again.
I never played D&D seriously, only as a kid with a few friends, and we had a very loose interpretation of the rules. In the situation you described, we would never have had a problem with saying to that cleric “Ok, you missed a few weeks so we’ll bring you up to the group’s level and give you a few upgrades so you can actually play.” Or even “hey this adventure requires level 10s, so everyone roll one up from scratch and take appropriate gear”.
I may be committing RPG sacrilege by suggesting such things (and it may not even be feasible in the world of Pathfinder), but if at the end the point is to get everyone playing together and have fun, then is that not a possible way of addressing the issue?
So describing each scenario as “hunt the boss” is misleadingly reductionist.
It’s not so much trying to be reductionist, it’s just trying to get a feel for if the overall goal of each scenario is always going to be the same thing. Thanks to all the feedback I totally get that the trip to the end of each scenario is going to feel very different (and there’s at least one case of the goal itself being different). I’m just a little surprised that, again, if you’re looking at the end goal of each scenario (excluding dreamshadow’s example), some of the creativity applied to creating different scenario mechanics (AoE goblins, traps, etc.) could not have been brought into the overall goal as well. I’m definitely not the most creative guy in the world, but with only a little thought I can imagine goals like:
Rescue all the villagers - A number of villagers are randomly distributed through the decks and when found skill checks must be passed else the bad guys drag them off to another location.
Close the rift - Search the location decks for x number of magical rift closing doohickeys, then bring them all together in a specified location where you need to first locate the rift, then close it.
There’s any number of established fantasy goal tropes that could be brought into play here to introduce some variety to the overall goal. And you could still fight bad guys and such along the way.
Now maybe this doesn’t work with Pathfinder’s mechanics and I just don’t realize it (given my only experience is watching a video), and maybe this is stuff they’ll bring in later in other adventure decks. Maybe I just need to shut up and buy the game already so I can actually speak from real experience. Given how much thought I’ve put into this stuff I think it’s safe to say it’s definitely going on my wishlist.
On the subject of loot:
Yes, the base set includes only one “loot card”, and the second adventure brings in another four. But the thing is, loot cards are just fixed rewards that you always get by completing particular scenarios (if the card isn’t in someone’s deck, admittedly). From what I’ve seen so far, they’re a little bit more powerful than an equivalent from the main card categories (the first loot card, for example, is a magic item that absorbs 4 points of combat damage, while other magic items might only absorb 2-3 at that point in the campaign, but I believe it may have a higher check to recharge it than those items), but not earthshatteringly so. And you will be finding literally dozens of regular items, spells, allies, etc for every one loot card. Also, I would personally consider the “feats” that upgrade your character’s skills, powers, and card maximums to be much more important rewards.
On the subject of character advancement:
By the rules, you get to build a starting character deck with X pool of cards (minus any in existing decks), and they only get the rewards and more advanced cards they earn via play. If you want to go outside the rules, there’s nothing stopping you. I can’t comment on whether it would hurt the experience any. I will say, though, that this isn’t a game I would want to play with a completely random group of players from session to session because the persistence is a significant part of the appeal. Having some players that are only intermittent isn’t a big deal, though, and it might be better to just pretend they’ve done everything the group as a whole has done. And you could, theoretically, make pregen characters since the printable character sheets also have complete card listings to indicate their deck build.
On the subject of scenario goals:
As far as I can tell, the actual goal of every scenario is always going to involve closing (permanently or temporarily) all of the locations in order to trap and defeat the listed “villain” card, and there’s always going to be a “henchman” card" for every location other than the one the “villain” is in. But how you close locations and what the “henchman” and “villain” cards actually consist of and what “defeating” them looks like varies considerably. Plus the scenario cards and locations add further modifiers.
Is it possible to just have one person play two characters if one of the group members could not make it to the game that week? Not sure how much work that would be (a la Sentinels of the Multiverse having one experienced player an extra hero as needed)?
Yep on all counts. :)
Sure, you could totally do that. Just like in a pen-and-paper game you could decide a new character is level 15 and just like in a PC game you could use a hex editor to give yourself 10,000 xp and just like in an EA racing game you could buy all the car unlocks in advance. I’m not trying to be snarky, but I wouldn’t dream of doing any of those things. But it’s certainly one way to avoid the issue of player’s characters getting spread out.
Keep in mind the box is also persistent. When playing with lower level characters, you would also theoretically have to sort out all the cards from the later scenarios. I’m at the point now where I can’t shuffle in the new content I’ve got if I don’t want to lock out certain characters. For instance, the bard who’s just starting isn’t supposed to encounter the creatures and loot from Skinsaw Murders. So what happens if I want to level up the bard? Do I just twink him, or do I go back and sift out all the Skinsaw Murders cards from each of the piles? Pathfinder’s unique persistence can also be a conundrum and a huge pain in the ass.
Heretic! Seriously, though, it’s a big set of toys you can play with however you like.
Those are cool ideas, but I’m not sure the basic game design needs that sort of stuff at a macro level. You’ll find the cards provide plenty of flavor and variety. For instance, in addition to monsters you fight, there are “barriers”, which is an all-encompassing term for traps, ambushes, treasure troves, and even a seductive shopkeeper’s daughter. Besides, getting too crazy with the objectives early on wouldn’t be feasible given how weak your characters. Also, everyone’s on a pretty tight clock. Pathfinder is ultimately about how to most efficiently do a pretty straightforward task (i.e. find and defeat one card). each character has a very different toolset, but they’ve built to contribute uniquely to that task.
That said, Skinsaw Murders definitely pushes the design around because, presumably, you’ve got leveled up characters who can handle a bigger and different type of challenge. The ghosts scenario, for instance, seems pretty daunting for how it pushes back at the players. I think anyone who’s worried about the basic objectives getting too familiar will love that one.
-Tom
Absolutely, and that’s a very good point. The game scales nicely by number of characters (2-6, I believe), but you can do this with any number of actual players. It’s also possible to play solo.
However, good luck explaining to your buddy that you got his rogue killed. :)
-Tom
Wow, I didn’t realize this game had permadeath. Although I’m also seeing there’s ways around it, and some people house ruling it out anyway.
My wife was half-asleep for the first 30 minutes of the video playthrough (and I was fighting the chromecast a bit), but when I asked her about the game the next day she said her interest was piqued, so on the wishlist it goes.
I will say, though, that this isn’t a game I would want to play with a completely random group of players from session to session because the persistence is a significant part of the appeal.
The main reason why I’m asking about all the options for playing non-persistent (or maybe non-consistent) characters is because my options to play this are basically limited to me, my wife, and my local (somewhat random) game group. I can definitely see getting a good bit of play out of the game with just the two of us, but it bumps it up to another level if it’s something I can do with the group. It may not have quite the same appeal, but the playing of the scenario itself seems fun enough that it might be enjoyable without the persistence. And who knows…if enough people are interested maybe it can turn into something regular.
Anyone doing the Poiza subscription? I’m curious what the cost of the packs + shipping is. I’m not the kind of person to go out of my way for promo cards, but if it’s comparable, might be worthwhile (assuming we like the base game).