Aceris
2080
In both cases a less unfriendly regime was installed.
I dont think the US could successfully install a puppet government if it wanted to. (They could install a government, they would just fail at puppeting it)
Not saying it wouldnt try, mind you.
KevinC
2081
Install? Sure! Succeed? Hmmm… :)
Contrariwise, if NATO just ignored Ukraine I’m sure Ukraine would then be as safe as houses, because Russia is only bad when we look in it’s direction.
KevinC
2083
Why are we speaking to @alekseivolchok like he’s a Russian stooge? :) I didn’t read his comment about the false flag as doubt:
I read that as:
Similarly, I don’t think anyone has been saying this?
Sorry, I’m coming off as a total thread cop. I just feel like sometimes things start to derail when we start putting words into other’s mouths (as it looks to me). @alekseivolchok seems skeptical that Russia will actually go forward with the invasion he’s no Russian troll or Incendiary Lemon type.
Timex
2084
Wasn’t that government elected by free elections in Afghanistan?
I mean, it collapsed under a military assault by the Taliban, it wasn’t really overthrown by “the people” en masse, right?
It seems like the Taliban is ruling via fear, rather than popular support of the Afghan people.
Thrag
2085
Ignoring the world wars and starting post-civil war so I’m skipping the Mexican American war and annexation of Texas we’ve got actions from outright invasion to equipping paramilitaries to influence campaigns to get friendly governments in:
Hawaii, Honduras, Cuba, Nicaragua, Nicaragua (again a few years later), Mexico, Haiti, Dominican Republic, South Korea, Greece, Italy, Egypt (though that was mostly the UK), Iran, Guatemala, Indonesia (failed), Vietnam, Laos, Cuba (again, failed), Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua (yet again), Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria.
(…we didn’t start the fire…)
I’m probably missing a few.
I don’t understand how people are astonished at the notion we might invade and annex or install a friendly regime in other countries. We just tend to do it not right on our border (because we border only a couple of friendly countries).
Yup. Because the endemic corruption that took hold of the central government almost immediately was never addressed, as soon as the American money spigot was shut off everyone who could do so GTFO’d, no doubt more than a few of them with nice fat Swiss bank accounts.
I thought that WAS US foreign policy…
I distinctly remember Trump talking about keeping the oil of Iraq. So when California turns in a dust bowl, and Alberta is able to grow tomatoes Feb-Nov, and has water, it is not all that far-fetched that the US decides that Manifest Destiny extends to Canada.
Putin is smarter than I am and vastly more knowledgable than I am about the politics and culture of the region, and I assume most of the Oligarch are also pretty bright. So I don’t pretend to know what the Russian leadership actually believes.
I do remember meeting Russian people, (and in my two trips I only meet elites) who were very skeptical that Americans actually elected their own leaders. So basically the Russian have the same faith in our electoral system as Republicans. So I think a skilled propagandist can easily convince the Russian people and probably other former Soviet Republics that NATO and the US are an invasion threat.
America as a democracy doesn’t pose a threat to Canada, or any “good country”, only bad countries, and I’m fine with that. (Que Team America: World Police ending) A quasi-authoritarian USA, is a much different critter.
Thrag
2089
Karzai was an existing CIA contact in Afghanistan who was initially appointed by an interim council of 25 American picked “prominent” Afghan citizens during talks in Germany. An election wasn’t held until a few years later.
I’m not convinced the US would encroach on Canada as a matter of policy, I actually expect Mexico and other Latin Americans to do it first. Cross the US border as climate-change refugees, but just keep going north. The Great Lakes look awfully tasty, but so do Great Bear and Great Slave Lakes and there’s a lot more smaller ones up there. US refugees might well join the migration, though.
Some people are trying to justify Russian fear of NATO which honestly again plays into the “Russia just wants security” narrative which of course is the blanket excuse for all great power aggression in modern times.
For my part, I would like Ukraine to not be invaded, to maintain it’s independence and democratically elected government. If someone says “just promise not to bring Ukraine into the EU or NATO” well we already tried that and now we are here.
It’s like how Iran might as well develop nculear weapons. They cannot trust the US to uphold agreements made and clearly respect can only be earned when one’s words are backed by nuclear weapons (they clearly saw, as we all did, Trump capitulate to Kim Jong Un)
Similarly, keeping Ukraine at arms length from the west has not saved them or really improved their position, because Russia surprise surprise, cannot be trusted. Therefore the alternate strategy should be pursued, if we have the stomach for it.
Me too. If anything, I suspect my view on it is even stronger than yours, which is why being called a Putin apologist is so fucking irritating.
Yes, that was already addressed; in the context off the conversation, the question was “…since 1846.”
Do you mean they have no right to be afraid? No reason to be afraid? Cause this is obviously false. It even contradicts your implication that the West can stop Russia from doing anything to Ukraine.
I did not call you a Putin apologists. I just pointed out that “Russia needs security” is the main talking point of Putin apologists so let’s not give it oxygen.
I don’t think anyone would mistake you for a Putin apologist.
They can be afraid if they want but it isn’t justified. Nor is aggression against their neighbours justified but they’re doing it anyway.
I truly hope they are afraid that NATO might capably do some things to make their invasion of Ukraine extremely unpleasant, and that they back down.
So they should be afraid, but their fear is not justified.
