21045
21046

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21047

Yuck. From admired to pure scum.

21048

If you admired him before, what changed? Russia is where he’s going to be staying the rest of his life unless he wants to be in prison instead.

21049

Not assuming anything. I’ve seen how Soviet equipment was maintained, and I doubt Russia is any better. Your general point is valid of course, though.

21050

21051

And to reiterate, I don’t think anyone is assuming the Russians are incompetent at X, Y, and Z. We’re seeing examples of that incompetence all the time. Of course that can change, but if it is changing we’re going to be seeing evidence of that happening as well. And if and when it does, I’m sure it’ll be posted about and discussed.

That’s all people have been asking for in this thread. Saying Russia is going to be super awesome at something going forward isn’t interesting in any way, it’s just asserting it to be the case. What would be interesting is demonstrating how Russia is improving in those areas. At that point there is something to talk about.

21052

This is among the greatest posts that have ever been made on this forum.

21053

Donated. Thanks for doing this.

21054

Correct, it’s up to them to prove the general incompetence won’t continue, because so far the incompetence has been what they’ve shown. Yes, they’ve managed to still fight the war to basically a standstill, but we can’t ignore how embarrassing that is for what’s been a much larger and (on paper) better equipped force from the start. And since it’s pretty apparent much of their issues go straight to the top I need to see evidence that things are changing at the highest levels. And history, as well as my own experience with entrenched narcissistic leadership tells me that the actual necessary change is never going to happen. Even if Putin understands that things need to change he himself is not capable of the necessary change to the system he’s fostered. He may sack/murder generals repeatedly but that’s only going to lead to more chaos.

21055

I initially admired him for outing the bad policies the Bush administration had been doing to us. But when he went to Russia that all changed. Him embracing Russian horribleness over the past several years put him in scumbag territory.

21056

I don’t think there’s any evidence that he’s “embraced” Russian policy. Just that he’s understandably, given how long he’s been stuck there, decided to get on with having a normal life.

21057

Well, I think its been an interesting debate, obviously stepped on some toes, most think I’m delusional, I think the same the other way around, I don’t base my thinking always about what others think about the situation, but also what I think myself is going on in the minds of a certain Putin and his gang.

My opinions are not ment to cause people grief but to present a different view on things, one that might not fit the current narrative on this forum, but which is very much alive many places. Now I have said time and time again, not pro putin and not wanting to see Ukraine lose.

I have read quite a lot of war history in my time, and I am worried the bias towards Ukraine is hiding some things we might need to know, maybe?

I don’t see trying to witness an event from both sides as something bad, but rather vital to understanding any conflict or situation.

As for Russia running out of artillery shells, well, they made about 3 million 152 mm shells in 1944 alone…from peacetime I bet they built a million a year for ages…

I reckon about 30-50 million rounds are stored in general, and that’s a conservative number, it could easily be as much as 100 million rounds. As someone else said here, I think in good storage, they last fine for ages, however nobody really knows …and I constantly see articles about Russia running out of ammo…

Wishful thinking isn’t going to make it so…they were out of missiles in may-june were they not?

Question is whats going to be neede to make them win…
f-16, no, nothing 4th gen will survive long…
More HiMARs, yes, that shit will certainly do the trick…but can the west sustain more units in Ukraine…

One weapon they use, is western mortars, we got some wicked mortars that don’t make that whistle sound before they land…they are scary as fuck…Russians hate them.

Those…many more of those.

Sorry Tom if I made a mess, I will stop if you want to, I just love to debate, and you guys present a very different crowd than some at home…

21058

“I bet” meaning you just made this up?

This too?

21059

No.

Numbers in thousands of shells.

21060

Yeah, that’s during the war. What about the “million a year for ages”?

21061

Thanks for helping to surface the good stuff, Tom. I’d have missed @Sabotai’s thing entirely amidst all the chuff if not for you

21062

I AM THE CHUFF

21063

Isn’t that worthy of a thread of itself, one less prone to bouts of verbal jousting, I support his thing 100% and think those who can pitch in.?

21064

Nah, you’re pretty firmly anti-chuff. :)

Anyway, I chipped in, and I’m sure others around here will too because this community is pretty awesome when it wants to be.

At a minimum it feels like it ought to be cross-posted in the “How to Help Ukraine” thread.