22172

The WWII eastern front was an order of magnitude larger in scale than the current Ukraine front.

The ramifications and impacts of WWII in general was an order of magnitude more significant for the world than Ukraine.

22173

The economy was dedicated to war production. Civilian factories were converted into making tanks, planes, rifles, uniforms, etc. Shipyards were converted to make destroyers, cruisers, battleships, carriers, and merchantmen. Factories worked around the clock to produce this stuff. Relatively little went to civilian production except for food/clothing, luxuries were cut back. And even civilian goods were rationed -food, gasoline, etc.

We aren’t doing any of that today.

22174

Why the Russian MOD can’t be believed:

Russian twitter:

Italian supporter on site:

22175

No doubt, but I just don’t see volunteer formations being a viable manpower solution either. If there are manpower issues, they would need a lot of people, not a few thousand, I would think. But we don’t exactly know, and thankfully the Ukrainians are playing things close to the vest as they should.

True. And WWII was an industrial-age war. The stuff being built was largely stuff suited for mass production. Hell, we even created the Liberty Ships, a templated mass-produced freighter that could be churned out in quantities. A lot of basic stuff scaled up in production quantities fairly easily. More complex stuff was a bit of a challenge, but even then, as with aircraft like the B-24s Ford produced at Willow Run, the basic tech of the era was highly suited to ramp up. Modern stuff is a lot less a matter of just throwing more inputs into an accelerated process. There is simply no way, even before cost considerations, of pumping out a lot of modern military gear at the same volume we did in WWII. No one can do it.

22176

I could see stuff like medics being something they’d happily take volunteers on.

22177

I feel sometimes that people in here think its like Russia isn’t in this to win, they are just trying to cope, or endure or something.

If Putin is to secure his legacy, he needs to win this, even a draw might be bad news, losing could lead to a very unstable Russia…
Shit options galore, he will continue to recruit and add troops to the front, it will be the vaunted million men thing, but of course not all at the same time, I guess rotation and stuff will be done, who knows.

They might run out of shells before that happens, even 3 million shells a year production can’t sustain 50k a day…however

Its a shitfest, and a dangerous one.

22178

Sure, putin obviously WANTS to win.

But he won’t. He can’t. Russia lacks the capability.

22179

Who do you think thinks that?

They are trying to win. They just suck at it.

22180

More to the point, what is their win state? They’re literally trying to gobble up land in service to an idea of manifest pre-destiny. You want Donbas, you don’t shell Kyiv. If we’re being honest amongst ourselves, this is nothing but Putin trying to rebuild the USSR. Ukraine has always been the jewel in the crown, so it makes sense that he would go hard for them, but we can all agree that it isn’t a legitimate claim, UA just wants to be UA.

22181

I was thinking, what does a win look like? Ceding all the Eastern provinces occupied? And agreeing to Russian occupation? And handing over the current leadership? And agreeing to disarm? And allowing them to direct their foreign and internal policy? And letting Russia have everything east of the Dnieper? And maybe more?

Part of the problem with this war is that nothing Russia says has either legitimacy or reality to it. Russia is clearly going to do… whatever it wants, without any reasons for it, except that they want to. So it’s incredibly difficult to agree to a peace that doesn’t look like handing Ukraine to Russia. And it looks like what Russia wants to do is destroy Ukraine politically, ethnically, and culturally.

So, if Putin is “going to do whatever he needs”, does this mean there’s nothing Ukraine or Ukrainians can do, except concede to be destroyed?

But… if they’re going to be destroyed… why not fight for every house, every block, every kilometer anyway? What’s the point, in other words, of peace?

At this point, it looks like Russia needs to be carved up. I was fantasizing about bringing back the Republic of Novgorod.

22182

fist bump Win state questioning twins!

22183

I heard an interview on the BBC a few months back where someone who was professional military talked about how many “Call of Duty Cosplay” people were there, and how dangerous it was to be anywhere near them. It sounded like some of the pros section themselves off and went on their own way so they could avoid being killed.

22184

But it does not follow that he will be successful, or even be able to take the steps necessary to win.

The reason why a million men didn’t make it to the front in December was not because Putin didn’t want it hard enough it’s because it was not possible.

22185

I think a win state is the following, land corridor to Crimea, the annexation of those lands, and almost land-locking Ukraine, and I believe a puppet of the nation and installing a Russian-friendly regime, it will be bloody oppression.

Yes, I get they want, but couldn’t do, but they will continue, I think it will be sooner than later, as artillery shells are running low, its the only thing holding the Ukrainian hordes back at the moment. The second they let that pressure go, they are going to get overrun.

Putin will drag this war on, a loss is unthinkable, the sheer fuckery of Russian politics is already insane, to the point that I think the entire nation is soon pretty insane.

All boding great.

22186

This is most accurate thing you’ve said.

But remember also Putin isn’t the only one who needs to win. Ukraine needs to win in a much more existential way, and we need Ukraine to win.

22187

And that’s a much bigger point. Georgia was establishing a southern front down the side of the sea, Crimea is the biggest win. I don’t see how RU can possibly take UA now, but the map tells the tale, without UA and the various smaller countries to the north and south, RU has to support a broad front rather than a small one. Take out Crimea and they lose much of their water access to the rest of the world. I want to see them lose, but when we hopefully get to the point where Crimea is in danger of being freed from RU, shit’s going to get frisky.

22188

The only way Russia wins, is of the west abandons Ukraine.

That’s literally the only way Russia can possibly win at this point.

22189

or if the conflict drags on for years and Ukraine runs out of bodies before Russia

22190

Putin wants to win, but he has to rely on people who want other things. People who want to get rich by stealing money and equipment meant for the war, people who want to grab a bit of power for themselves even if it hurts the war effort, people who want to settle scores, people who want to stay away from danger, etc, etc. Most of all he needs to rely on people who fear telling him the truth, who in turn rely on people with all the above failings.

He may want to win, but he has constructed a society based on fear, lies, and greed - the latter makes the former impossible.

22191

Yes indeedy, if you watch the one about what kit to take he has some fairly hair-raising stories about what some of the guys decided was appropriate to bring along with them.