JonRowe
22932
I hate this as well. We can dehumanize enemy combatants, as a treat!
I was writing an extremely long thread derail partially rebutting your argument, but I decided against it. Racism is racism, and even European countries have it too, agreed. But, I would lean into the U.S. being founded on racism and slavery, and the fact that we have 2% ethnic americans, so things are very different.
Yeah, and I still think it’s a bad-faith misread of anyone’s intent to label this as ‘creepy.’
@Anklebiter’s reply, once I looked up Spenatsoppa, is in line with the discussion point I think @Timex was making. Democracy is hard even when everyone looks the same. Throw in everything else America has endured of its own making, and looking at where we are now with some rabble rousers in court losing regularly after breaking and entering the Capitol and it’s still enduring rather well given the circumstances.
I’m not sure how people got out of @Timex’s reply that he’s somehow racist. He was saying the opposite IMO. Diversity (and a history of slavery) makes democracy fucking difficult, yet here we are, still voting regularly.
Well, putting the whole thing in context, the original exchange was basically this:
“Democracy is America’s unique asset.”
“What? Lots of other countries do democracy and seem to do it better.”
“That’s because they’re demographically homogenous.”
I don’t think the discussion of demographics has any bearing on the validity of that particular response at all. Democracy isn’t unique to America, and some other countries do seem to be doing it better, if doing it better means getting better results for citizens. The reason they do it better is probably because 1) they have more responsive systems of government, and 2) they have better resulting policies.
vyshka
22936
Is that including other nations, or are the Germans sending more than the 14 stated? I’m pretty sure a battalion is a fair bit more than 14. That sounds like it is about the size of a tank company.
Achievement unlocked: Tanks!
Nah, this was a Schurem exchange which means the best passion and energy on this board. It was more like:
“Democracy is America’s unique asset.”
“What? You are smoking crack. America is a shitshow democracy that’s corrupt as fuck. Look to dem other boys and girls in Europe if you’d like to see how it should be done.”
Which deserved a smackdown in return, and the Timex thing was relevant. I’d say in total, EU countries have further to go than US when it comes to race relations, and none of those democracies have that sweet sweet diversity that makes America’s unique :)
schurem
22940
Tanks with really fucking sweet gizmos: IR for both gunner and commander, battlefield internet to browse reddit while pwning russians and guns that can fire long rods of depleted uranium to make those T-72 turrets try for orbit at stupendous ranges. Also chobham armor at the front so you can shrug off the answering fire.
jpinard
22941
I’d like to see the number be hundreds of tanks so they can smash through enemy lines if possible.
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should :)
I mean, sure, if it’s just a dick-size contest. But in terms of actual facts, “democracy is America’s unique asset” is an absurdity with which people in other democracies should and do take issue, and “other countries only do it better because they’re homogenous” is both irrelevant and (probably) wrong.
vyshka
22944
Sadly, we are pretty much the only country that could give them hundreds at this point. Hopefully the total numbers when everyone has chipped in will be pretty decent.
Your (probably) is doing a lot of work there IMO. When everyone looks the same, and there isn’t much outside pressure from immigration and having to deal with the color of people’s skin, I think it’s a lot easier to sit in a parliamentary setting and get things done. Everyone feels like they’re the same. It’s just inherent in how human beings tend to act. Once you create a mix the likes of the US, I’m pretty sure it’s a lot harder to get everyone on the same page, as we see every single day in America.
But importantly, so far, many of us keep fighting to bring everyone in under the big tent. That’s in spite of these people trying to tear it down every day. Are those other democracies weathering these kinds of threats to their very existence and staying on course? I see right-wing influence in Europe that has actually been moving the needle there toward success for them… and maybe that’s because the diversity that’s here in America helps us keep it more in check over time?
We’re all adults here. We can discuss this without people calling one another “creepy” although it should probably have its own thread. Sorry to shit this one up.
Eh, people are people, and dick-sized contests are built into our DNA.
It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Integrate as many other races and ethnicities into a culture and then see how well those democracies hold up. Has there been any others like it in history? Seems pretty unique. It ain’t perfect, and 'mericans are the most asshole ethnocentric bunch possible, but there is some really good stuff that deserves some pride.
Anyhow, my participation in this dick sized derail is done.
Lolwut?
First, see my post about how looking the same doesn’t mean the same as in the US.
Second, EU countries are subject to an open border policy towards a total population 10x their size or more on average. There’s significant immigration “pressure” (whatever that means for you).
Immigration is basically the first political issue raised by right wing parties in many, many EU countries.
“Those countries do it better because they’re culturally and ethnically homogenous” is a big claim, and the burden is on the one making that claim. The US system is uniquely conservative — by which I mean, in this case, “resistant to changes in policy” — and I think you would have to account for that first. But all of that is irrelevant. America isn’t uniquely democratic. Other countries are democratic, and some seem to have far better outcomes for citizens. It’s insulting to pretend our democracy is unique or special when talking with those people.
I read your post, and if you all want to split hairs on your own levels of whiteness/religion in Europe, that’s cool. We have that in addition to the color of people’s skin triggering part of the population here in the US and that all goes into our democratic process.
And immigration is probably raised first because Europe is largely white so keeping out people who are not is definitely part of that right wing agenda in your part of the world.
I’m pretty connected to European football and Formula One, and I watch carefully how race affects those sports… and it’s pretty clear it’s no better than the US… if not worse. I think ultimately though, the mix of people makes it less obvious. There are fewer voices speaking out, and many of them aren’t native to the area. They are being hired for their services from other nations.
@scottagibson I’m not saying it’s “special” but I am rebutting the idea that the European democracies somehow are because they get more done. I think, and I believe this was @Timex point initially, that it is simply easier for them to do so given the makeup of the population and that the representatives match their constituencies much closer than your typical American politician who may be dealing with demands from a much broader (and possibly completely foreign to them) mix of cultures that deserves representation just as much as the guy who looks like they do.
KevinC
22950
Do you know how has the best democracy? Russia. The country is unified and harmonious in its support for Putin, the greatest Russian leader that ever lived.
I understand the claim. I’m skeptical that it is the only reason or even the principle reason. Those democracies are designed differently and function differently. By and large, they are not deliberately hamstrung by a design meant to protect the property of the wealthy and powerful from taxation and other interference by a strong central government. They’re designed to permit the winners of elections to govern, to carry out the agenda on which they campaigned. That’s a huge difference right there.
How much time have you spent in large European cities?
