I think you really misunderstand what race in Europe is like. Whiteness is not even a part of the conversation in most cases. Neither is religion many times. Try language and customs. As far as I know there are no racially driven secessionist/independentist movements in the US with significant political power, for example.
We are in the Ukraine war thread. If you think there are not racial undertones to the conflict (despite both populations being Slavic), you are naive.
You are not going to see a lot of European race dynamics, because a lot of them you can’t. You have to hear them.
It’s not like European race constructs haven’t been a fundamental factor in the launching of a couple World Wars.
Note that I’m not saying Europe does good with race. I agree with @Timex we do poorly, but race is constructed differently over here.
There ought to be some kind of map which conveys who considers who ‘white / like me’ or ‘not white / not like me’, but it would be such a tangled mess that you’d never be able to make sense of it.
You seem to be agreeing with me at the end there, so we’ll just put this to bed I think.
I want to note for the record that my neighborhood and the school my kids attended here is way diverse. My sons and their friends didn’t really see the color of skin or their ethnic backgrounds as impediments to cooperation. They were just buds. It still gives me hope for the future. As a white dude, I’m a minority on my block.
One of the things I love when I visit South Africa (my wife is from there) is how many of the young people I see don’t observe any race barrier in their association at all. The old people are terrible, deeply entrenched in the lesson of their lives, but the young people seem to be growing away from that. It gives me hope for that country, despite their massive problems.
abrandt
22956
After weeks and weeks of stalemate with only a couple of exciting news items we had to choose the day the western tank dam broke to take the thread on this tangent?
Some countries are sending some tanks, sometime soon. That’s the concrete news.
abrandt
22958
I mean, I guess the actual event is kind of less exciting to discuss than all the debate about sending them in advance. And maybe someone somewhere had that as their boiling the frog strategy for supplying tanks.
Either way, it’s a big deal! In a few short weeks Ukraine has been promised a sizeable number of the best IFVs and now tanks available.
And now the discussion will move on to new jets for Ukraine and there are some pretty heavy rumors(including some comments by Ukrainian officials) that F-16s are coming soon. Ukraine is close to unlocking the entire NATO arsenal.
I just mean there isn’t much to talk about because the details are so thin. The US will send 31 M1s sometime in the future. The Germans will send 14 Leopards sometime in the future. Other countries will send more Leopards, sometime in the future. It’s great news, but vague.
I realize that we already knew this was happening, but this is the official announcement, which is like when Fabrizio Romano does “Here we go!” and Dave Wasserman does “I’ve seen enough”.
schurem
22961
I deeply, humbly apologize for jumping on that tangent. It is true, we in Europe also have minorities that are being institutionally shat on. Our cops don’t kill as many, and we do not hold a world record in per capita incarceration, but yeah you’re right, our democracies are just as shambolic as yours. Cough-bullshit-cough.
It would be fitting to discuss how awesome these tonks we sending are, and which exact model, and which ones are better, and what they’re best used for, and how much pain and suffering they are going to inflict on those poor gopnik bastards and if the crimea is going to be gloriously liberated in six months or twelve
Dejin
22962
I did a bit more poking around. Most articles just specify that Germany will be providing 14 Leopard tanks and some articles also specify they will be 2A6s not 2A4s. The Defence Minister’s statement is not quoted in any other articles I came across. However, I did find this in “The Guardian”:
(source)
Apparently Poland doesn’t have 2A6s only 2A4s. As to the difference, the 2A6 has a 55 caliber gun vs. the 2A4s 44 caliber gun — so better penetration and presumably range. Also the 2A5 had better armor than the 2A4, which I presume is carried on to the 2A6.
It is not necessarily bad in war. Killing a human being is hard for most people, even after basic training/indoctrination, slaughtering an orc is much easier.
schurem
22964
It also helps that the russians have badly misbehaved themselves, placing themselves firmly in a category of hateable bastards that fully deserve every mortar shell, howitzer round and rocket slung their way. In short, they behaved like fucking orcs, and I don’t feel bad at all for calling them such.
abrandt
22965
A look at how much work will be involved in converting US Abrams tanks into an exportable version for Ukraine. I’m back to thinking the best option is for the US to be rather persuasive to another country that already has an export variant of the Abrams to get those sent in a hurry.
Moar tank talk, less dick-size talk please.
KevinC
22968
Maybe we can combine the streams? Who has a bigger dick, the Leopard 2A6 or the Abrams?
Would you rather fight 100 dick-sized tanks, or one tank-sized dick?
abrandt
22970
Don’t they both have a Rheinmetall 120mm dick?
