22992

According to Wikipedia, Kuwait and the Saudis already have various M1A2 versions. And yeah, I’d offer them a run of the latest export M1A2 version for whatever they give up.

At least some of what Poland is getting in the near future are older US stocks that are getting re-armored. So depending on how soon those are getting produced that’s where I’d ask Poland to send those right to Ukraine with the promise to fill out that stock later.

22993

I think the greatest argument for sending all the M1s to Ukraine that Ukraine wants is that fighting Russians is literally what they were built for.

22994

Wonder if it would make sense for someone not fighting a war to accept British Challengers in place of Abrams or Leopards and let those go to Ukraine. Avoid a third weird tank design needing to be accommodated.

22995

That and every Russian tank,IFV etc that an Abrams kills is one less weapon that can be used to threaten other countries, and should mean lower defense spending for the US.

22996

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

22997

Correct me if I’m wrong. But aren’t the Abrams that we are sending going to take over a year to get there? Either because they’re stripping out secret stuff or actually building them from scratch specifically for Ukraine?

22998

I think we’re only sending Ukraine Abrams because that was the only way to get Germany to send Leopards. I don’t think the US cares how long they take to get there. They aren’t being sent for military purposes, they’re being sent for political reasons.

I am curious as to exactly why the Pentagon was so adamantly opposed to sending Abrams. Was it the secret armor issue upthread? Was it actually the complicated maintenance and logistics tail — if so, then why the hell would Poland or some other country without US super-expensive, top-notch logistics want to buy them? Was it the Pentagon just wanted to hoard all the Abrams for themselves and the way out of this was for Biden to say, they’re not coming out of stocks, they’re going to be newly built tanks straight from the factory floor?

The reporting on this seems to indicate that the White House and State Department both wanted to send at least some token tanks to get Germany to move forward and that the Pentagon was opposed. I just don’t see why the Pentagon was not happy with sending a small token force of Abrams tanks.

I think Biden made the right move here. We needed Germany to move forward, because even ignoring the military issues, the “coalition in disarray” narrative is exactly not what you want being projected to Russia.

22999

Oh, no doubt.

23000

Oh sorry I meant to add the /s

23001

Ask the War Thunder people.

Well, Poland isn’t in a shooting war inside their own borders, so there is plenty of time to set and train them on the logistics.

Any time there is a weapon deal like this, it always comes with a logistical train as part of the deal. Generally there is no rush on this sort of thing. If Paraguay wants to buy F-16s and we’re willing to sell them, then part of the deal is helping them set up the logistics of owning and operating F-16s. They keep their old planes during that process generally and we send people and material over to them to show them how it all works.

Now if you’re in an active shooting war it can still be done (ask the Soviets and British) but it also complicates things quite a bit. An Abrams isn’t a Sherman at the end of the day and the logistics tail on it is a much bigger undertaking. Which isn’t to say you can’t send an Abrams into an active hot war, but the reality is that doing so is likely to not be very effective (unless you’re sending enough to matter, like they are for the Leopards). For 31 Abrams it’s pretty irrelevant. If I had to guess those tanks would be relegated to a specific area for defense, just to keep the logistics easier to handle. Mixing them with Leopards and T-72s on the front is probably going to be a pain. Having them watch the Belarusian border or guard Kyiv is going to be fairly painless.

Edit: Also it seems the Ukrainians by all accounts are really good at multi-national logistics. Whether that is from the US training them on some NATO standards, natural ability, or a matter of they had to get good as a matter of survival, I have no idea. Probably a little of each.

23002

hard pass. but anyway armour is made to be used

23003

I would imagine the resistance from the Pentagon to sending tanks might have stemmed more from the Army looking at it from a purely military and doctrinal POV, rather than any political stance (though who really knows I guess). A handful of tanks doesn’t really fit into any reasonable operational scheme, and it may well have struck the armor brass as an idea with limited to no real value. If so, that is why we have civilian control of the military I guess–sometimes, a cigar isn’t a cigar.

23004

DarthPutin in top form, as usual.

23005

Exactly.

The bad shit isn’t because of minorities.

The bad shit is because PEOPLE TREAT MINIORITIES BAD.

If you eliminated racism and bigotry, a ton of the other problems that folks are talking about go away. Not all of them, of course… but a lot of them.

Again, it’s not the fault of the victims of bigotry… it’s the fault of the bigotry itself.

EDIT: Also, sorry, when we started talking about this, I didn’t realize this was the Russia thread… I thought it was the Europe thread.

23006

This idea went down in flames last year, but I really think its time has come now that Europe has resolved the tank debate. And IMO getting all the former Soviet fighters in Eastern Europe to Ukraine is still a better plan than talk of F-16s etc.

23007

It’s unreal how Russia just keeps throwing missiles at Ukraine now. Targeting Kiev is gross. I’m sure Russia would have a monumental meltdown if Ukraine rained missiles down on Moscow.

23008

I don’t know if these are ones suited for export, but there’s a bunch of US tanks sitting in Poland already.

23009

Russia would like to take them out the moment they hit the battlefield. I wonder if there’s a way to pull them into a trap.

23010

I don’t know why, I just find it interesting to read what people are saying in conservative (speaking of US conservatives) corners of the internet. You can tell when Russia has started a new bot campaign see it spread like a virus.

A couple that I have seen pop up lately and I’m wondering if it’ll pick up steam:

  1. “Zelensky was never elected! Ukraine is corrupt! They are keeping this war going so they can continue to receive equipment/money from us. It’s time we cut the aid so Ukraine will make peace!”
  2. “The US is falling into a trap by Russia. They started this war to bleed the US dry, Biden is a fool for falling for it and sending the equipment to Ukraine”.

Neither of which makes any sense and if the people spent the time it took them to post the drivel to actually think about it, the problems would be obvious. But that’s par for the course for Republicans.

23011

2nd Brigade, 1st Armored Division was deployed several weeks ago to shore up NATO. Remember, the US Army’s armored presence in Europe is nowhere near what it used to be during the Cold War. 1st Armored used to based in West Germany. Now it’s based in Fort Bliss, Texas.