Janster
23052
Awesome interview from that airplane guy, used to watch his stuff a long while ago, he wasn’t that hot on sending stuff to Ukraine, maybe he’s changed…
I think a honest narrative on whats going on in Ukraine is important, and we should have sent those tanks months ago, lets hope they get there soon.
Also, unless used right, they are no more artillery-proof than T-72, although I think its 120 mm mortars that kills a lot of them, they are really dangerous.
But that’s like, exactly what he’s saying, among other things.
It’s the sanctimonious first sentence of that tweet that rankles.
Timex
23055
I think that suggesting Ukraine was similar to Iraq demonstrates some pretty profound revisionism.
I don’t recall Ukraine invading and attacking its neighbors, or murdering ethnic groups within its borders.
I think some people want to believe that we’re doing this for Ukraine, but it’s a pretty simple fact that nobody in Washington or Bruxelles gives a damn about Donbas or Crimea.
We are very specifically doing this because Ukraine was attacked by Russia, with whom we have issues.
Ukraine is morbidly corrupt, it has an unresolved nazi past that continues to haunt them, and it is a very dangerous place to live if you’re gay.
I do think they’re on a better path, and I think the invasion will push them to become better even faster, but I don’t think anyone should kid themselves that bringing Ukraine into the EU would gain us another Germany or Sweden. It would be far closer to another Romania or Poland, which are countries that we struggle with on various levels.
There are plenty of things to like about Ukraine, but a lot of it is how they persevere, how they fight, and who the enemy is.
Haha, well said.
It’s manifest destiny, isn’t it? In American mythology, the US isn’t the dominant world power because of specific things that they’ve done in the past, and continue to do now, but because it was predestined. Almost like a Quaker prophecy or some such.
I do wish more Americans were cognizant of just how wrong that is, but having lived there, I also understand why they aren’t. It’s hard to see another shore from America, unless you’re Sarah Palin.
I hope you don’t mean those countries as the bottom of the barrel cause even without the devastating war Ukraine has a very long road ahead of it till it can be compared to these two countries.
I think Nazi or homophobia are overblown, but it’s just, you know, a corrupt and undeveloped place. They have a moral high ground now as they fight the worst country on the map, but they are not above shady deals with Lukashenko, the closest ally of Russia, helping him stay in power. Zelensky is popular around the world right now and Ukrainians have no choice but to gather round him, but he is not really beloved by his own people and before the war it looked like Ukraine is going to be in perpetual state of young corrupt oligarchic weak democracy. The whole Russian plan hinged on Ukrainian elites fleeing and/or selling their countries, and I understand that’s what happened in some places. The plan obviously failed, but it wasn’t that far-fetched.
It all does not cancel out the fact that Ukraine has to be supported by the world. But it’s, like, closer to WW2 lend-lease situation than it’s comfortable to admit.
Maybe, but compared to what, Russian propaganda? Certainly.
Somewhat ironically, hating the gays and having nazis on the battlefield are two things they share.
I agree that it’s tied to development, and that it can be helped. I’m just very aware that we have those countries in the EU, and that moving them forward takes a lot of time and effort.
It’s like you say, things like that kinda get lost in the cheering :)
Timex
23059
Really? He won election in a landslide. Currently, his polling numbers in Ukraine are pretty astronomical.
Right before the war Zelensky’s rating was 24%. Also he didn’t win in a landslide, there was a second round of elections because in the first no one got 50%, Zelensky only got 30%. He won in 1v1 where it was either he or the previous president Poroshenko, who was accused of treason after the elections. As I said, it’s rallying around the flag now. My evidence that Ukrainians aren’t that happy about him now is anecdotal, of course, from my Ukrainian acquaintances. They say it’s a common sentiment that he’s not great but he’s our leader in this war. It’s obvious to everyone you can’t have anyone replace Zelensky now.
I don’t know if most Americans believe this, though some probably do. My guess is most Americans believe we are a dominant world power because of our economic might and our willingness to hyperfund our military – not because we are destined to lead the world.
abrandt
23062
It’s one of those gross developments of Christian Nationalism so it gets a lot of play. But you’re right, I’m not sure how much that belief exists outside of Christian Nationalism and those figures who want to appeal to them.
The big difference I see is that afterward Ukraine will want to remain oriented towards the West(this war probably largely resolves that internal split in which direction the country should be oriented) and join the EU and NATO. Let’s hope they don’t get to shortcut the reforms necessary to actually attain that.
I certainly don’t think you do, Mark. It was definitely not a jab at anybody. I think most people on this forum are interested enough in the world to know it’s a fallacy.
But you do hear what @alekseivolchok was referring to quite a bit. “We want to be number one, but we also don’t want anything to do with the rest of the world”. Which is an obvious paradox, which to me seems based on the fallacious belief that “The US rules the world because that was always going to be the natural order of things”.
I think all of us here know that the US is the dominant power, in fact, because it does engage with the world.
That’s also why a lot of people target the US. That is the burden of leadership. When you are the one making the decisions, first of all, you are going to make mistakes, and second of all, people will hate you for those mistakes.
That’s one of the grand fallacies of the MAGA movement. Trump claimed he would disengage while surrendering absolutely nothing, but all he did, even by saying so, was diminish his own power by making people doubt the United States.
And even with his supposed conviction, he was still forced to engage all over the place in Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, Venezuela, China, the Koreas and Europe.
KevinC
23064
Yep. I’m in a rightwing region of the US and I think that’s spot on. Maybe not manifest destiny exactly, but being ignorant and blind to the many advantages that the country has due to its position.
The cake they eat every day is the status quo and they’ve never stopped to ask themselves who made it or where the ingredients came from, it just is. So when it comes time to buy some eggs and some flour (or heaven forbid, pay for the farming and chickens that will lead to that), they balk and whine about the burden of paying for it all. They would never want to give up the cake of course, it’s just that they’ve never made the connection that the two things are related.
Well, Turkey is in NATO, isn’t it? When it’s not all about fighting Russia you may end up with a country that is part of your block and also is more willing than most to, let’s say, get into agreements for a short term gain.
Not that I have some grand vision of what really must be done. Can’t see a way out of this without writing Ukrainian government a blank cheque, but I think everyone should realize it’s not supporting elves VS orcs here.
Well, Romney wasn’t exactly wrong. Invading Iraq did lead to spreading violence and did pull the US into further conflicts. Maybe this is his way of making a gentle mea culpa for helping launch that invasion.
abrandt
23068
Sure, and I think the EU membership is the bigger deal for leverage there(although, you can just respond that Hungary is a member of the EU). While NATO membership hasn’t stopped Erdogan, it has at least provided some opportunity for NATO countries to apply some pressure.
I think ultimately the goal of becoming a member of NATO and the EU is a far more motivating than whatever pressure is applied to member nations after they’ve achieved that.
Who knows, it’s a long road to get there and lots of things can happen. I just want to make sure it’s the Ukrainian people who ultimately get a chance to decide on what that future looks like rather than have it imposed on them(by Russia or by us). But I guess I’m just an idealist like that.
KevinC
23069
Romney was the governor of Massachusetts from 2002 to 2006 so I don’t know why Iraq is being laid at his feet or why he would need a mea culpa?
People that did vote for the authorization to go into Iraq include Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Chuck Schumer. So even if he had supported it, he would have had good company.
I think the problem is that most of us don’t think about this at all. The idea of American supremacy and hegemony is a baked-in assumption, sort of like the sun rising in the east. It just is for most Americans. Hell, even going as short a way down the path of reflection to see our power in terms of economics and military action/spending would be a vast leap in intellectual engagement with the subject.
