More sad and horrified than freaked out. If China goes after Taiwan or this escalates further, I reserve the right to become freaked out then!

On swift “that’s not the position the rest of Europe wants to take”

Are you fucking kidding me?

EDIT: I hope there’s something that the US and UK can do on their own at least? Damn, this just enrages me.

This Fox News guy needs to fuck right off.

2022 is not 1938 and bullies do not usually have nuclear weapons.

Absent Trump coming back to power in the USA (in which case all bets are off), Putin is not going to attack NATO members after Ukraine, unless WW3 is what he is actually after. Because that would be the consequence of such an attack - NATO can’t back down in such circumstances, and there is no indication that this would actually happen (again, absent Trump). If anything, Putin has strengthened, rather than weakened the resolve of the alliance.

And if Putin’s long-term plan was to go for a throw-down fight with NATO, then weakening Russian military by getting bogged down in an occupation of Ukraine doesn’t seem like the smartest move. Reality is not a videogame, where each conquest increases the resources of the conqueror snowballing into world conquest. Even in the best case where Russia rolls through Ukraine without resistance and installs a puppet regime, that regime is going to need to be propped up by a military presence for many years.

What happens in South-East Asia will happen irrespective of how NATO responds to Putin. If anything, having NATO (and the US) bogged down in a war in Ukraine would probably be better for the PRC than anything else likely to come out of this.

This is just patently false. I get the impulse to think so, but take a step back for a moment.

How exactly would a military build up have helped?

In reality, you can’t just teleport military forces around the globe. Any deployment meaningful enough to have an impact on the conflict would have taken months to get in position and would have been obvious to the Russians. And they were ready at the border months ago. Any race to establish a presence before the Russians could invade would have been won by Russia. A Ukranian mobilizaiton would have had the same effect.

A token presence would not have deterred Russia. It would basically just have provided the reality to back the narrative that Putin is trying to sell to his population. And it would have increased the risk of an escalation immeasurably to have US, UK or EU soldiers getting injured or killed in Kiev.

Honestly - I was a bit annoyed with Biden as well about him saying there would be no military intervention. But assume that the US has good intel on Russian troop movements and capabilities (as seems to have been the case during this crisis throughout), and realizes the (IMO) truth that sending a few companies to the Ukraine would be unlikely to deter Putin.

The absolutely worst thing - much worse than saying that there would be no military intervention - is to bluff when it’s obvious that you’re bluffing. What Biden did pulls some of the fangs from Putin’s propaganda warfare and exposes the lies about Western aggression (which Putin is still trying to use) as not only lies, but obvious lies. All of that stuff about NATO expansion (which comes straight from Russian troll farms)? Significantly weakened. All that would not have been possible to rebut as clearly with NATO troops in Kiev.

All of the above does not mean that Europe/USA will retaliate effectively and take the right moves now, but I think it is wrong to argue that Biden/EU could have prevented this if they had just acted differently. To quote ACOUP’s Bret:

  1. Putin’s objectives, as he stated them tonight, reveal all of the diplomatic lead up to have been lies - he aims to overthrow the elected govt. of Ukraine.
  2. Given that, it is not clear to me that any reasonable NATO action could have averted this.

Assuming we actually do what most affected governments have been saying - strong sanctions on Russian economy and freeze of Russian assets - how do you equate that with USA/EU not giving a shit about anything but our own interests? There are many ways much more effective than getting into a shooting war with the fourth largest military in the world to strike back if the West is serious - and united - about doing so.

The word all day has been that Germany (and perhaps others in Europe) don’t favor cutting off SWIFT. I do think the unilateral measures the US and the UK are taking will bite, and hopefully the reluctant EU states can be brought around.

Time to find out what all those day zero exploits the intelligence services have been hiding actually do.

I’m generally against them doing this, but if you are going to have them now is the time to use them.

I’ve got to say I dont really have a feel for what the impact of SWIFT sanctions would be above and beyond the planned sanctions, or why some EU states are so opposed to them. Can anyone explain?

“SOME” is doing a lot of work here. I have “some” control over Trump’s forcible separation of children from their parents at the border. I have “some” control over the invasion of Iraq in 2003 under false pretenses.

As a member of a (badly) functioning democracy, I had more control over those events than the average Russian has over this invasion of Ukraine. I agree with you that if the Russian people rise up in protest in large numbers, they can affect the direction of Putin’s regime. But it takes tremendous courage to do that, as we’re seeing in other posts in this thread. A few thousand protesting in a city of 15 million.

If I was facing many years in prison (or worse) for simply protesting here in the streets of San Francisco, I’d be biding my time, waiting for others to also rise up. I applaud the tremendous courage of those who are already out there protesting in Moscow’s streets, but I don’t generally blame the Russian people for Putin’s regime.

Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that the Russian people have some minor degree of blame, but we need to appreciate how limited the ability of the populace is in influencing government policy short of massive revolts.

Biden’s answer in the conference is that the planned sanctions are harsher than deswifting. Can’t speak to the details yet.

The US has a lot of power to act unilaterally. It’s amazing how regulation of US bank transactions can effectively become a policy that affects all European banks (because of their own needs to make transactions in the US).

I’ve mentioned on this forum before how a British-Iranian friend of mine had her personal bank account closed by a British retail bank that was effectively enforcing US sanctions against Iran. Not because US sanctions had any legal force in Britain, but as I guess some kind of risk management decision that having Iranian customers risked drawing the attention of US regulators.

Yeah, I can’t find a good detailed list of all the sanctions he announced.

Maybe the cruelest irony of all, given that Ukraine’s legally elected president is Jewish.

From what I understand, cutting Russia off from SWIFT means no payments to Russia and Germany and Italy at the very least depend on Russia for gas.

So… unless those countries find a way not to need Russian gas and oil in the next few weeks, they’ll probably remain opposed to that.

Context: Doocy’s ‘question’ was actually just an opportunity to observe that the stock market was down and gas prices were up and what was he (Biden) going to do about that.

Good. Thanks guys, my grasp on UK politics is tenuous at best. Glad to hear it’s a mostly united front on sanctions from the UK.

Sadly I expect it will not be as easy here in the United States thanks to the USSR (United States Senate Republicans).

Yeah, sometimes the wheels move slowly. I don’t see how anyone can ignore Putins words and actions over the last week.

Hopefully it’s just a case of a few countries needing an overview of what they stand to lose, and what they might be able to salvage before committing. I very seriously hope that’s it.

My electric and heating bills have already doubled, and it’s not exactly fun, but if it’s a question of holding Putin accountable, I’ll suffer worse.

@Timex has overthrown a lot of violent dictatorships, you see.

It’s really quite easy. You just have to accept the death of yourself and your entire family, or at least their possible torture and imprisonment. You have to come to grips with the possibility of the loss of their lives and their happiness.

Once you get over that, standing up to brutal regimes is easy.

(This is all entirely sarcasm, just to be clear)

Noice!

(specifically, Key_and_Peele_Noice.jpg)

This is my layman interpretation, someone with more knowledge may like to chime in:
SWIFT is a system for interbank messages - financial institutions use it to process payments, fund transfers, interbank communication. To be removed from SWIFT means you can’t pay for anything, anywhere, you cannot transfer funds. It’s almost akin to blocking Russia from the entire Western banking system. The EU don’t want to (and probably cannot) do this because they use SWIFT to pay for their Russian gas.