I not saying we should necessarily establish a no-fly zone. I’m saying that we should have a discussion, and calling anyone who suggests it crazy is wrong. Biden should take the necessary steps. (moving planes, mobilizing reserves squadrons) to enable NATO to establish as soon as practical.

If at the end of the day if our leaders decide that the increased risk of WWIII outweighs the benefits to the Ukrainian people, and the deterrence effect it has on other countries thinking that having nuclear weapons gives the free pass to attack, well so be it.

The point of discussion is not only to figure out the best way to help the Ukrainians but to put more time pressure on the Russians to attack or negotiate. If their frontal assault fails to take Kyiv next week. The Russian doctrine will be to roll up many hundreds of their 152 mm howitzers and start shelling turning Kyiv, into Allepo,Idlib, Palmyra, Al-Raqqa.

The Syrian Civil War will be 11 years old next month. I remember when it was the shining new thing, with CNN correspondents, John Kerry making all types of threats and promises, and unprecedented sanctions were applied, protest against Assad in the streets, and pretty colored lights in support of the brave protesters. Hey, it even had its own thread, right here on P&R. the last post was 10 years ago.
I called out Kerry for his happy talk, and predicted Assad would remain in power.

I’m one of the million folks who watch the PBS Newshour, and the Newshour unlike the rest of media, didn’t completely forget about the Syrian Civil War, once every few months they’d do a story showing the destruction, but even they pretty much stopped after Covid and so did my contribution to the Syrian White Helmets. In two years probably less this war will be forgotten in the same way that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were forgotten until a few months

The reality is sanctions don’t work, the two exceptions were South Africa, and Libya arguably. It took literally decades for them to succeed. Sanctions, are the west’s way of saying, thank you for your service, or putting black lives matter in our Twitter profile. Most of this talk about how devastating this will be to Russia, is wishful thinking. Russia is one of the most self-reliant nations, they are net food exporter and net energy exporter. Trade is only $28 billion out of 1,709 billion economy. They have a rich supply of natural resources, and heavy industry. Sure they’ll have a hard time making smart weapons without chips, but a 152 MM shell only needs about 50KG of steel and explosives.

I’m setting a calendar alarm to bump this thread in 2 years, it won’t be hard to follow then…

I get what you’re saying and I personally think there’s merit to it, but why do you think they haven’t already had the discussion, simmed it out, spitballed crazy ideas, then at the of THAT day (or culmination of several), it was determined to be a bad idea—including moving even more forces into the region and/or playing that out in the media? We can armchair general all we want as nobody here has been a fly on the wall, but I’m pretty sure the notion would have at least come up.

Of course, they have. As far playing the media, I’m not sure I give most of the leaders, credit for being that clever. Although, I’m sure some in the defense and intelligence department, along with some politicians are smart enough.

The one thing, we do know is the Kremlin understands that Western leaders respond to public pressure. So, I’m pushing it on Twitter. If anybody has a good introduction for how to set up a Twitter Troll Bot, I think that’s my next step.

I think no-fly and related political controversy appears to be not worth the risk. If Ukranian UAV’s currently can attack Russian reinforcement/resupply columns (admittedly only one example I have seen) then why put your own personnel and materiel at risk? I suppose this is also partly why US Govt keeps saying Russia does not have air supremacy as yet (which is not in the UK MOD commentary, so is thus likely there for a reason).

Scholz actually getting some long gestating decisions done in one go. 100 billion € extra for the Bundeswehr, 2% + for defense long term, nuclear sharing and armed drone procurement confirmed.

I’m personally very sceptical of it because the poor readiness of the Bundeswehr is not primarily based on a lack of money, but a lack of direction and willingness to actually commit as well as simple mismanagement.

Since the twitter quote is wrong I’d like to emphasize that it is indeed a 100 billion € additional one time investment, on top of an attempt to constitutionally anchor the 2% goal.

The difference between 100 million and 100 billion is not something that should drown in faulty tweets, and neither should the difference between “will be written into the constitution” and “attempt to constitutionally anchor”.

Well, I was very critical of Scholz a couple of days back but he seems to be walking the walk now. I got the impression that previously the German military has been regarded as a tool of American interventionism by some, and maybe that view is changing to see it as a guarantor of European security. At least that’s my hope.

Establish a no-fly zone, it seems to me is like saying Start WWIII, with NATO shooting Russian planes and Russia shooting NATO planes, since apparently Russian AA systems can do that from inside Russia.

So, if that’s what people want to say, say that. Or maybe it’s me not understanding English as well as I should.

In the end it’s an emotional thing, to do with feeling in control and not powerless. People saying this want to feel powerful in the face of a threat. When you analyse it, the chances are quite high you will end up feeling even more powerless and out of control.

I concur, Scholz and Lambrecht have to reform the whole structure of the Bundeswehr and especially the office of procurement: the Beschaffungsamt.

According to Wikipedia:countries_by_military_expenditures, we´re already spending roughly the same amount as France and nobody says they have poor equipped forces.

With 2% we would overtake India and be the country with the 3rd biggest military budget after USA and China. And on top a 100 billion one time investment. I´m curious what toys we will get for that…
The Bundeswehr just got Daddys platinum creditcard, I imagine arms producers all over the world are checking their schedules for a visit to Germany right now…

Oops, my bad. I thought I had read here earlier that Denmark was not. I should have checked.

If Finland and Sweden won’t join, they won’t join. I don’t suggest we force them.

Okay, but the person you quoted approvingly and said you were in agreement with is saying that. And you’re defending that idea by suggesting ways we could get into a direct air war with Russia that would only sort of be a no-fly-zone and therefore somehow avoid WW3.

I also think they have had that discussion — who will we risk nuclear war for by fighting a conventional war with Russia? — and the answer is pretty clear: those countries in NATO. We’ve been engaging in that discussion and making that consideration for decades.

Russia is sidestepping around major cities for a reason, but at some point they’ll have to try to take them to secure flanks.

Yes, it’s hard to use a highway network for your supply lines if you don’t control the cities the highways connect. You can bypass them in exchange for speed, but then you need to win quickly.

Is there any actual reporting to that effect? I can see the tweeter is from the Kyiv Independent but I have no idea what that outlet is and he doesn’t provide a source or anything.

I’ve been following him for the last couple of days and his stuff always seems to back up with Ukrainian sources. Fog of war notwithstanding (and he is a biased agent) I tend to trust his updates.

BBC is reporting the same thing, based on statements from the Ukrainian regional governor.

This Telegram accounts is an official Ukrainian source:

They also claim they recaptured a city close to Donetsk the pro-Russian forces held since 2020

Those armored vehicles are firing multiple rounds into … a statue of a tank.

For an army that seems to need to conserve ammo rounds…