The Russia is getting more evil thread

[Istari6]

@Quaro

There was an interesting interview with a Polish man on one of the OSINT Livestreams. He said he was shocked on how the Russian invasion united the political parties that were absolutely hostile to each other just one week earlier. Also shocked that Poland was incredibly warm to Germany, he said relations had been pretty cold, I forget the reasons. Even Ukraine, he said that Poland didn’t particularly like Ukraine or have a good relationship with them, or was warm to immigrants. But now when a Ukrainian refugee is in a store, the store owners are just just like, ‘Just take it, just take it, no charge, please, it’s the least I can do.’ and he was seeing this EVERYWHERE.

He did say that had a few Putin supporter holdouts in the government but it was less than he expected and those people seemed to be getting absolutely shunned. Wild times.

Based on my (totally amateur) reading of history, this is how different peoples always weld together into larger groups. By having a bigger threat appear.

Look at the smaller German states before 1871. There was a lot of antipathy, jealousy, slurs, tensions between them. But the first Napoleon helped create a sense of common German feeling against France, and then once Bismarck maneuvered Napoleon III into invading, they agreed to merge their sovereignty together under Prussia in the new German Empire.

Or look at the American Colonies. It took the threat of Britain (“we need to hang together, or we shall surely hang separately”) to finally get the squabbling colonies to get it together and form the United States.

So it doesn’t seem surprising that coolness between Poland and Germany, or between Poland and Ukraine, would both evaporate in the face of an aggressive Russia that threatens them all.

[Grifman]

Michael Kofman

[charmtrap]

What’s odd about it?

[vyshka]

A Russian IL-76 flying from Moscow to Bratislava when the EU has closed its airspace to Russia.

[Papageno]

@vyshka

They wouldn’t have kicked out Turkey in the Cold War. We had no problem with non-democratic governments as long as they were anti-communist.

Yes, I’m aware. It’s always “Yeah these guys are bastards but they’re our [anti-Communist] bastards.”

[pyrhic]

@Thrag

Since my history geek nerve was hit it got me thinking. Perhaps the closest US imperialist analogies would be of course the Mexican American war, and (for Crimea especially) the occupation of the port of Veracruz in 1914.

The second Iraq war? Ya, it lacks the proximity of Ukraine/Russia, but there’s some other commonalities even if it wasn’t outright imperialist.

[charmtrap]

Gotta be a diplomatic mission, one would have to assume?

[Valambrian]

@Strollen

So my question to Valambrian is this. I have heard two different narratives, NATO has actively been encouraging UKraine to join the alliance OR That most Ukrainian are very eager to join the EU and NATO and have been pushing to make it happen. What is your view on what’s happened the last 20 years or so?

I think it’s more complicated. From what I understand, US was pushing for admitting Ukraine into NATO, while France and Germany were against it in 2008. Before 2014, most Ukrainians were against joining NATO. After losing Crimea, the majority of Ukrainians want to join NATO. I don’t remember whether the last poll numbers I saw included all Ukraine or only government-controlled area. I’m not sure whether it would matter in the end.

[Thrag]

I don’t think Slovakia is part of the flight ban. Poland is so I assume it had to divert after entering Polish airspace. Is there something else I’m missing?

[vyshka]

Slovakia closes its airspace to Russian planes - spectator.sme.sk.

It almost looks like it was going to Kaliningrad then hooked a left and shot to Bratislava, Slovakia once it hit Polish airspace. Just an odd thing to note while looking at flights. There are some exceptions listed in the article like humanitarian flights.

[Thrag]

The second Iraq was holds a special place of distinction in actions that rightly freaked out other nations. Though that was more the US than NATO (though arguably a distinction without a difference).

Speaking of, that recent fox news video of Condi nodding along to the assertion of invasion being a war crime is a special something.

[Valambrian]

@Dave47

I suspect you already know this, but the United States, the UK, France, Russia, and China all have vetos in the United Nations. So, if you use the UN as your moral compass, you’re going to get lost.

Early 1999, China was a good friend and Putin wasn’t even a Prime Minister. Why couldn’t United States talk some sense into the Security Council? As a side note, I read that Bernie Sanders lost an assistant because he (Bernie) supported the bombing campaign while the assistant was saying diplomacy still has a good chance.

But to be completely honest, I don’t trust moral compasses, mine included, because a hero is the villain of the other side. I prefer rules that all agree to follow.

[Papageno]

@Mark_Weston

@Valambrian

This was an illegal use of force, according to the UN Charter. Saying that is was done for a good cause doesn’t make it legal. Otherwise, “denazification of Ukraine” would be a perfectly good excuse, too.

No. Because the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was real, and the claims that the Ukrainian government is a neo-Nazi regime imposed by America is hilariously false.

I tend to agree. Legal or not, it stopped that “ethnic cleansing” in Kosovo as it was euphemistically called. Milosevic died during his trial or soon after (don’t remember now). Ratko Mladic is serving his well-deserved sentence as a war criminal.

[vyshka]

@Valambrian

I prefer rules that all agree to follow.

The world would be a much better place if everyone did that

[Valambrian]

Hallelujah

[vyshka]

Yay, Pat Robertson has come out of his crypt to let us know Putin is doing God’s work by bringing us to the end times. We need a level 20 cleric to head wherever he is,

[charmtrap]

Fuck this Putin motherfucker.

Vera Bergengruen

[Grifman]

So let’s say Putin is successful and wins the war and an effective insurgence never develops or is crushed. What’s next? A new Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain along the Polish/Romanian border with land mines, razor wire and guard towers? I can see older Ukrainians staying but I suspect a significant number of younger Ukrainians might seek their future in the West. If so then he gains a territory that becomes a steady drain on Russia.

[Dejin]

I think @Timex’s analysis from this morning is spot on. Putin’s fucked up badly and he’s screwed even if he wins the war.

That doesn’t mean that this isn’t going to be absolutely awful for Ukraine. It doesn’t mean that things will necessarily get better for Ukraine. But Putin is going to come out much worse off regardless of what happens from here on out.

[Strollen]

That is heartbreaking to read. The entire campaign of focusing on the pain the war is causing to Russian mothers is brilliant, i don’t think any government has ever done that before. I almost feel sorry for the Russian UN ambassador having to follow that performance.

Another video from the same Ukrainian lady

JskSrs