Lurb
5162
Crazy images, this in the supposedly “pro-russian” east of the country.
Observe how the russian “negotiator” avoids being lynched by holding armed hand grenades.
Dejin
5163
Tweeter is AFP News Correspondent
Lurb
5164
Also rumours of Russia planning to bring Yanukovych out of storage as president of Ukraine, which I find so completely deranged it must be true.
I have a lot of acquaintances in IT companies in Russia. They all flee the country, mostly helped by the companies because it’s clear no outsourcing will be possible soon.
draxen
5166
This thread RE: NATO expansion was interesting:
Tweeter: Some totally random dude who is into Chinese medicine (?!).
EDIT: I should also add that I picked up on this because it was re-tweeted by a reporter from the Independent - not from some Russian propaganda farm ;)
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul
Fair enough but you don’t have to be Henry Kissinger to understand a Nato tank in Estonia or Latvia is pretty threatening if you’re a Russian dictator.
spiffy
5168
Is it really though? the only invasion Russia has to worry about is immigrant displacement over the next 10-100 years of global warming. That’s it. No one is ever going to roll tanks into the country and try to subjugate the Russian people, ever, and you’re an idiot if you think someone would. It’s a garbage excuse.
draxen
5170
I don’t think it’s an excuse. There is no excuse for what Russia has done.
Still, I think it’s interesting to try to consider the Russian geo-political perspective.
Lurb
5171
All these people are right and wrong at the same time in different ways. They are factually right in saying “look, this guy is a deranged bully, if we help the people he bullies he will go apeshit and all these clever people told us in advance”. But then they are morally wrong in their conclusion that you don’t stand up to bullies.
I always go to a guy who runs a Chinese medicine shop on the internet for that.
I don’t think it’s an excuse either. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be a) a dictator and b) a Russian dictator. And having gone through that exercise I reached the conclusion evil Vlad has, which is “they’re boxing me in.”
Fortunately I’m not an evil Russian dictator and I’m not paranoid.
And I’m still not Henry Kissinger, thankfully.
I was going to post that article as well. It’s such a good illustration of how they portray the war internally.
On Rossiya 1 and Channel One - Russia’s two most popular channels, both state-controlled - Ukrainian forces are accused of war crimes in the Donbas region. The threat to civilians in Ukraine comes not from Russian forces, but from “Ukrainian nationalists”, says the Rossiya 1 presenter.
“They use civilians as a human shield, deliberately positioning strike systems in residential areas and stepping up the shelling of cities in Donbas.”
Channel One’s presenter announces that Ukrainian troops “are preparing to shell residential houses” and bomb warehouses with ammonia, in “acts of provocation against civilians and Russian forces”.
Events in Ukraine are not referred to as war. Instead, the offensive is described as a demilitarisation operation targeting military infrastructure or a “special [military] operation to defend the people’s republics”.
Across state-controlled TV, presenters and correspondents use emotive language and images to draw “historical parallels” between Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine and the Soviet Union’s fight against Nazi Germany.
I’m definitely on the slow painful march towards the “they’re morally wrong” for acting (or rather “not acting”) like that camp. But mainly because footage of indiscriminate strikes on civilian areas is pushing me along.
Plenty of wise men have warned about NATO expansion, they have also warned about fighting land war in Asia, or the middle east. George Washingon made it simple, “Do not get involved in foreign entanglement.”
Here is the thing none of the wise men thought to ask the people of Ukraine what they thought of their plan, to keep their country permanently tied to an authoritarian regime, that has never been a functioning. democracy.
Generally, speaking protecting democracy, standing up to bullies and evil men is not the wise thing for individuals or countries. Being Switzerland is safer, and often highly profitable.
Realpoliticks is smart, it is also antithetical to US values, and we see the conflict in this thread.
Seriously, you think a country that’s been invaded by at least 5 times, by 8 or 9 countries over the last two hundred years has no reason to fear an invasion. Hell just US has taken down a dozen authoritarian regimes in the last 75 years. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for the Russia to fear the West, Japan, and China, especially if Russia remained anti-democratic.
That’ll show those decadent westerners!
D’you think the jumper is some kind of anti-western statement too? I’m reading it that way myself.
Switzerland is an extremely comfortable but rather troubling place. Their neutrality though, understandable, given the history. And wise politics if you’re a small country.
Yeah, the evidence so far suggests that if you border Russia and you’re in NATO you don’t get invaded, while if you border Russia and you’re not in NATO you do get invaded. For European nations, anyway, seems like being in NATO is…better?
