All this talk about nukes, but I don’t see where it’s coming from. Nukes are not going to fly even if Russia and NATO did get into a conventional conflict in Ukraine. NATO would have to be closing in on Moscow before the Russians would consider launching nukes.

Yeah, expecting this, too. You leave behind special forces as your lines get overrun, and then let them mow down logistics convoys and rear echelon units that are wholly unprepared with dealing with Tier One operators.

Also

I disagree, there’s some great analysis on Twitter, some of it much better than traditional news sites. But there is also a bunch of crap, much worse than regular bees. You really need to look at and vet your sources.

The city killers are on their way:

That’s a defensible and consistent position to take, but I don’t think I am stretching things too far with my hypothetical ‘group of people’:

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/research/public-opinion-survey/first-time-half-americans-favor-defending-taiwan-if-china-invades

Yet, I don’t know the subset of these people who also oppose a no-fly zone over Ukraine. I can’t help but think the only reason Taiwan hasn’t been invaded because Xi thinks there is a significance chance that the US would intervene.

Apparently Ukraine is offering Russian soldiers 40k to desert? Certainly cheaper than some of those weapon systems.

For anyone suggesting a no fly zone:

A NFZ relies on NATO having air superiority ie NATO planes not being shot out of the sky by SAM’s so that they can persecute the NFZ. To achieve that you would need to take out the Radars, fire control and AWACS equivalents not just in the Ukraine but also in Belarus and along the border in Russia itself since radar, SAM’s etc are not just short range. I don’t think anyone should seriously be thinking that NATO should be firing rockets or dropping bombs into Russia.

A NFZ is a non starter.

I agree, if Putin tried nukes he would probably be couped.

Russian generals don’t want to die unnecessarily.

Jinjer apparently in Kyiv, which is rough.

Well…I’m just happy we have Reasonable Joe in charge and not some of the idiots I’m reading on the internet.

I don’t think this level of certainty is justified. Firstly, no one can ever know for sure what bad decisions might be made under stress and time pressure.

But secondly, this is not the Cold War! There was a real strategic stability for most of that time, and neither superpower’s survival was seriously threatened during any of the proxy wars that happened. Nobody wanted to lose in Korea or Vietnam or Afghanistan, but neither side was going to be permanently defeated if they did.

Putin’s Russia is different. Brezhnev didn’t have to give a shit about elections or opinion polls, Putin actually does. The institutions keeping him in power have nothing like the size or weight of the Communist Party or the KGB. He depends on image; on being the strongman who’s made Russia respected / feared again, and who from time to time can send Russia’s military out to defeat her enemies and embarrass the West.

But now it turns out he’s gone all-in in Ukraine. I doubt he saw it as such a strategic gamble a month ago, but now it’s clear from the Russian Armed Forces performance so far that Ukraine alone is nearly too much for them to handle. So I’m certain that an all out NATO air campaign would wreck both the forward Russian combat elements and their logistics, and their only choices would be retreat or surrender in place.

Sounds great. Except for Putin, that wouldn’t be an unfortunate loss in a proxy war. It would be a decisive strategic defeat. With the strongman image in shreds, with the Army so weakened it could never intervene outside the Federation’s borders again (and probably too weak to even keep his clients in line), plus a collapsing economy; he will have lost everything he’s been trying to achieve in the last 20 years. So do we think Putin is the kind of man to surrender, or the kind of man to escalate?

Thank you.

Every expert on Putin and modern Russia I’ve seen has said the same thing: “We sure hope he’s not crazy enough to use nukes, but…he doesn’t typically make threats he isn’t willing to follow through on (and has followed through on), either.”

Even if we don’t intervene with any military strikes, we could be pushing Putin towards this. We have declared full-on economic war on Russia and it looks like it will be very damaging. If Russia’s military adventures in the Ukraine get stalled Putin may very well reach the point you describe.

There are Trump levels of bullshittery in this thread supporting a gamble of escalation between two nuclear powers. Just no.

The are about to do an amphibious assault in Odessa, it seems.

I hope it’s opposed.

The best we can hope for is that the portable AA Ukraine has or is getting can enforce a near ‘no fly’ zone just by having them hidden all over the country. They don’t really work against jets but Russia is still using plenty of helicopters and slower plane transports.

I think there are a number of differences between Taiwan and Ukraine. Just off hand:

Putin seems out of control. Long time Putin watchers were pretty stunned by his speech’s last week and there are some concerns that he’s unhinged. If Xi starts acting like that, perhaps we’ll have similar concerns with China, but so far, China has seemed like a rational actor — although clearly Xi is moving in the complete dictator direction.

I think it’s far more likely an elderly megalomaniac dictator would just decide “fuck it” I’m going to die pretty soon anyway, I don’t care what happens after I’m gone” (Putin is 69) and decide to launch nukes, in contrast a more committee-based leadership that’s interested in the long-term ascendency of its society is not going to do that.

Putin’s actions last week show either he’s out of touch, or doesn’t care and is just going to roll the dice. Maybe he’s just acting that way, but again, foreign policy people who have been watching Putin for a long time were pretty stunned by his speech and have serious concerns that Putin is losing it.

China’s leadership does not seem to be inclined to use Nukes. (although as noted in the study that could change). That’s in contrast with Soviet era policies for both NATO and USSR which suggested things were far more likely to spiral into a nuclear exchange.

Taiwan can be a more self-contained theater than Ukraine. Taiwan is obviously an island. Attacks can be limited to naval targets, air targets in Taiwan’s airspace, and ground targets actually in Taiwan. This just isn’t the case with Ukraine. There is way too much opportunity for spillover.

Russia has a lot more opportunity to play tit-for-tat with low-level responses because of geography. For example, shelling Poland from Belarus or one of the Baltic States with artillery could be used as a light “punishment” that would be in a bit of a grey zone for how to respond. For example, they could fire a few salvos of artillery at NATO countries every time a Russian fighter is downed. This could lead to a no-fly zone over Ukraine paradoxically proving that NATO is in fact a paper tiger if we don’t respond to direct shelling of a NATO country. China could launch missiles at Japan, but that would be a lot more provocative. Also we would at least have the appearance of attempting to protect Japan with anti-missile technology such as Patriot batteries — how effective they would be is an open question, but even appearing to take action makes a difference here. There is nothing we can do to prevent artillery fire into NATO countries other than direct retaliation. China has fewer lower-level retaliation options. Russia has a lot of them.

Russia has much better technology, particularly with respect to their anti-aircraft systems, which are just top notch. There are a lot of concerns that without taking out Russian anti-aircraft located on Russian soil, a no-fly zone is completely undoable. A US President would be facing a lot of pressure to attack anti-air and anti-ship systems located on Chinese mainland, but the possibility of carrying out some operations without doing that are far more likely.

Russia has a lot, lot, lot more nukes than China. Although China is building more.

Funny cognitive dissonance I noticed in some Russian propaganda. There’s a theme criticizing the West for not defending Ukraine, “Ukraine depended on the promises of the West to defend them, and the West left them alone to be defeated. This is why you should never trust the West.” Right along side is the opposite, “If any support is given to Ukraine, sorry, that’s not fair we’ll have to destroy the world.”

I know contradictions are just a small speedbump for Russia propaganda but I wonder if part of the dissonance is because the first theme, criticizing the West for not defending Ukraine strongly enough, was queued up when they expected to finish the invasion in just a few days. The line kind of sort of works in that scenario.