19578
19579

I read the thread and I’m still none the wiser. It’s just a doxxing, which, fine, but it’s not what was advertised

19580
19581

Medvedev onsite fixing tank production woes by increasing worker morale:

19582

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

19583

The Armata’s will really start cranking out now!!!

19584

Scenes from the factory

19585

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Company have asked Biden to bypass Ukraine and negotiate Peace with Putin.

19586

Bush? I think you mean Biden. :)

So, these idiots think Biden needs to open up negotiations with Russia in a war in which we’re not a party to? Russia can have peace at any time, all they have to do is… leave. Where is the need to negotiate with Russia now, when they’re on their heels? Why would Ukraine ever negotiate a peace that doesn’t involve Russia getting the hell out of their homeland?

Fuck AOC and the rest of these 30 Democrats.

19587

Facepalm.gif

Thanks for the correction @KevinC! Original post edited to indicate it’s 2022 not 2002.

19588

Clearly those hecklers got to her and she realized how much of a warmonger she’s being by not letting Russia bully whoever they want for whatever they want.

As someone who has had the US only make very questionable military decisions since the age of 4(which is how old I was during the Gulf War) it’s really been something feeling like we’re finally unambiguously on the side of good. So yeah, fuck the people who don’t stand up for a peaceful sovereign nation. Especially a conflict where we’re only donating things and aren’t putting our own soldiers lives on the line. We can’t spend a few billion(and a lot of that being hand-me-down equipment that was just going to expire anyway) putting our money where our mouth is with regard to basically all of our stated national values? Fuck that.

19589

Well, that’s really disappointing.

However, the text of the letter does at least acknowledge that these hypothetical negotiations should always involve Ukraine. So at least they’re not proposing another Munich.

On the other hand, that leaves them in the position of wishing for unicorns. The administration should be actively negotiating towards a framework for peace, while at all times including Ukraine and respecting Ukraine’s wishes, with an opponent that won’t accede to any of Ukraine’s minimum conditions. But “negotiation” is magic, right?

19590

I found this hard to believe and it looks like I was right:

I also found it hard to believe the Ben Garrison cartoon and I was wrong.

19591

I think the idea that the US should directly negotiate with Russia is wrongheaded.

Russia can negotiate with Ukraine. And as long as Ukraine wants to keep kicking Russia’s ass, then our position should simply be to help them do so as much as we can.

We should not be stepping in and acting like the “real” counterbalance to Russia. It elevates Russia beyond their station, and denigrates the Ukrainians.

Russia is not above Ukraine some way, worthy of direct negotiations with the US as though we and them are the adults, and Ukraine is a child, or worse, property, to be allocated as we see fit.

No, Ukraine is the current dominant force in this conflict. They are in that position because they are better fighters than the Russians. If Russia wants to stop getting their asses beat, then Ukraine is who they need to talk to. Or, alternate option, they can just fucking leave Ukrainian territory.

19592

Adding my name to the chorus of “screw AOC and those 30 other Dems on this subject.”

19593

A lot of this seems to be a product of a certain mindset that simply cannot believe a world leader would pursue an aggressive war with no qualms and have no desire to negotiate. It’s a mindset that keeps telling itself that at root everyone just wants peace and any war is a matter of misunderstanding. Or some such shit. These people to be fair are also reacting to a generation of American bullshit about how necessary the war on terror was, but they have totally lost the thread of the narrative more broadly.

19594

This should be in the. “Liberals say stupid things” thread. Are they suggesting Biden pull a Chamberlin and “peace in our time” with Russia over Ukraine?

19595

And a rebuttal.

EDIT: Ugh, just noticed that my Congressman is one of the signatories. He’s gonna get an earful from me at least.

19596

Did you guys read the letter? It doesn’t sound that unreasonable to me. Legitimising the cessation of any territory is not the goal, it is dangling sanction relief to Russia in exchange for a withdrawal. It talks about how any agreement must result in a ‘free and independent Ukraine’.

Is the US talking directly with Russia such a terrible idea? What @Timex wrote in his last post sounds like a good rebuttal to the idea. It might indeed be better not to talk directly to Russia, but this is hardly a letter that stymies the Ukrainians in any way.

19597

The letter is not as bad as has been made out, but it’s pretty bad. There’s a lot of “thing we have to say” BUT “thing we actually want that negates it>” It boils down to saying Biden should offer Ukraine solid US guarantees (subtext)in exchange for Ukraine ceding territory to Russia for peace.

What else does Russia want?

The letter very carefully doesn’t rule it out.