KevinC
19919
I just think it’s unsound to draw many conclusions from Russia’s performance in the war. It may very well be that the era of CAS is over, but again you can make the same argument against armored vehicles. Ukraine is bristling with Javelins and they’re destroying a lot of armor but that doesn’t mean tanks or IFVs can’t be used effectively when supported and used properly.
Ukraine is still operating aircraft for ground attack roles as well, if I’m not mistaken. Limited and not without cost I’m sure, but they’ve been hitting the Kherson region for months with them.
EDIT: And to clarify, if there is still a role for CAS is modern warfare I’m not saying the A-10 is it.
Grifman
19920
What goes around will eventually come around:
It could be a cold and dark mid-winter in Moscow.
vyshka
19921
I like how company names in former Soviet countries frequently are mashups of bits of words together sort of like turducken. In this case mashing together Ukrainian Defense Industry.
Gutsball
19922
I lost my virginity at my school’s Ukroboron prom.
abrandt
19923
Agreed. Trying not to get dragged into this discussion again on this thread(we already have one for the A-10 specifically because of how detailed this one got for days) but manpads aren’t an insta win button necessarily. Maybe when used by a well organized force, but not for a majority of potential opponents. That said, even if they have to get lucky to spot and fire on a properly used CAS platform, it could be often enough that it’s not worth it. Like you said, I don’t think we can draw conclusions on that topic from this war.
Yes and no. The combined arms we’re talking about involves killing the guys with MANPADS before they can launch them.
Vitally is a Russian citizen living in Ukraine for the last 13 years. Also a veteran of the Russian Army.
He tried to volunteer to fight for Ukraine on Feb 24th, but the army and the territorial defence were reluctant to take him. So he pulled strings with friends to get himself into one of the militia type units that were incorporated into the UAF (in the same way that Azov were). And he’s been fighting for Ukraine ever since.
He makes for a great interviewee:
JonRowe
19927
With the guys who are calling in CAS? CAS is supposed to support the guys on the ground fighting other guys on the ground. If the other guys on the ground are dead, you don’t need CAS.
The problem with MANPADS is that they only take one person to use, and can be literally anywhere.
They are just so damn effective now, especially the Stinger.
Timex
19928
Honestly, the A10 design actually makes it better than meant aircraft against MANPADS. It’s engines run cooler than most aircraft, and its tail design shields the exhaust of the engines and makes it harder for IR based seekers to lock on.
If an A10 is coming in on your position, and you have a stinger, I’d rather be on the A10… If you get a lock, he’s going to pop his flares, the seeker is going to lose lock because of the design, and then the A10 is going to drop a lot of bad things on you and you will die.
The better situation for the guy on the ground would be if the A10 doesn’t know they are there, and is still flying low enough for them to get a lock.
Also… There have been a number of cases of A10’s getting hit by missiles and still coming home safe.
Jaws_au
19929
I feel like I need to give more props to Eugen - that could have been straight out of Wargame…
This is one of the worst Soviet legacies. If you’re looking for some administrative building or a state company it always looks as if a cat typed the name.
jpinard
19932
Let’s hear your theories, because this is just unreal.
Too scared to go into the zone, gonna get shot by general if they come back to base with ordinance, so they just shoot it up into the air?
Or a legitimate, laughably ridiculous, attempt to use these rockets as unguided artillery? Once again, too terrified to venture into the zone where it’s actually needed.
Who says you need to be an artillery unit to use indirect fire? I’m sure they’ve done all the proper calculations, with their slide rules, and know precisely where those rockets will land. /s
For years, the French and Italians were the brunt of jokes about really bad troops.
Then the Iraqi army after the first gulf war became the army to beat. My favorite story was a group of Iraqis who surrendered to a drone. Of course, the drone was a spotter for the Battleship Missouri.
But the Russian army is setting a super high bar for the worse army, and having hours of videos really makes the point.
Grifman
19934
Russian withdrawal from Kherson seems real:
I suspect a lot of mobiks are going to die so the veteran troops can escape.
All true; the point though is that “combined arms” is a shorthand really for an integrated battlefield approach to warfare. Ideally, you don’t have CAS or infantry attacks or armored thrusts in isolation. It’s all tied together so that you get that synergy you are looking for, and no one thing can derail your efforts. Of course, that’s all in theory. In practice, it is a lot messier.
One Stinger or equivalent is admittedly a threat, but generally manageable. It’s the presence of many of them, plus AAA, plus SAMs, etc. that makes CAS so hard. And that’s assuming you have air superiority and don’t have to worry about interceptors, etc. But OTOH, that’s what modern military forces develop doctrine to counter, though goodness knows it ain’t easy.
It’s apparently a literally textbook attack right out from Russian manuals.
Uniper, Germany’s gas utility, just announced a EUR 40bn loss for the year to date.
If true, this would be quite a surprise.
