Exactly.
Pushing ubers through chokepoints/turret traps is a vital tactic in TF2, and those teams that do not do so…well, they fail, and are thrown to the ground.
RickH
1823
There’s no counter-move. I’m not sure unstoppable-ness has a place in a game like this. Especially the kind that’s so easy to gain.
Alan_Au
1824
Nonsense; there are all sorts of counters, usually involving sticky-bombs, spies, and defensive ubers.
Enidigm
1825
I guess i have a couple of problems with it.
Uber-feeding. That is, damage that doesn’t kill an enemy actually speeds the uber-chaining. So random rockets into a choke are actually hurting you rather than holding the enemy back. It places a premium on (usually) demomen, as a couple of stickes can kill most classes. Long-range shooting from fatties is notorious for feeding the uber.
It reduces advancing - and to some degree the whole game - to “who has the uber”. I don’t hate ubers or anything, but the whole game now is about uber-chaining, with some random fauna milling about the edges. There are always exceptions (a spy sabotaging teleporters can totally stymie an offense’s momentum) but if you’re not playing the uber game, your team is chalking up another L.
And i should say the reason that is a problem is because it reduces diversity. Especially on low pop servers, there really isn’t any slack around when your team needs 4 medics, and misc. offensive classes (the pyro as i discovered somewhat at the same time as everyone else, is the best uber-target for room clearing, better than the heavy which takes too long to move and kill).
More people need to realize how good soldiers are at defense against ubers. Particularly against those now common Pyro ubers. Even when you can’t knock the medic off a cliff (my favorite thing), it’s not hard to juggle a Pyro until his uber wears out.
Cyranix
1827
I think your expectations are hindering you here. Personally, I don’t expect random rockets/bullets to be a viable form of combat unless I feel confident that no medic will reach the target.
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” As you noted, teleporter sabotage (I love sapping entrances about 1 minute into a game!) is a momentum killer, and a good spy can take out medics deftly. Medics may try to build up their ubercharge in a engineer-fortified area to deter spies, but again, prevention is key – a coordinated counter-offensive should prevent attacking teams from establishing such a stronghold.
The composition of a good team is largely determined as a response to the opposing team, and it would be unreasonable to expect different outcomes (barring major fluctuations in skill) if a team’s composition over repeated matches never changes. Moreover, I think what I’m trying to get at is that every situation (to my knowledge) has multiple viable responses.
In the case of ubers, I hope you can experiment with some of these responses:
– separating the medic from the [X] with rockets or stickies
– physically obstructing the pair with engi buildings or bodies
– forcing the medic to pop the uber undesirably early
– level 3 sentries in pairs (blows ubered pairs away)
– killing the medic pre-activation (or the [X], if necessary)
Any of the above (plus more, I’m sure), coupled with preventing safe havens and disrupting the coordination of a whole-team attack, may help you feel less overwhelmed by the uber mechanic.
Then again, sometimes you just lose. :P
bloo
1828
Agreed. The good teams adapt to conditions as necessary, which means sometimes you don’t get to play snipe-whore, you snipe-whores! (As opposed to the true snipwnr who can come out of Dustbowl 2 as blue, from the get go, and shut the other team down - yeah, I haven’t seen it happen either).
A few weeks ago on the Deke Lord Chet’s server, Dustbowl or Gravel pit was starting fresh and someone commented, “4 medics without asking - I love this server!” It wasn’t a bunch of people who love medic, it was a bunch of people realizing that we need 4 medics to steamroll on this map and Jonathan Crane or whoever, is kicking ass as a heavy, so I’ll go medic because we don’t need my 1337 snipewhore skills on this map…yet.
See… I’m of two minds here. Yeah, it’s good that people want to play the medic because it’s obviously ftw. But…it’s starting to feel like WoW where you can’t go anywhere without at least two healers. I’m all for class balance, but the focus of the game has become the medics almost and that’s pretty boring for those of that don’t like playing the medic.
The upcoming changes aren’t really enticing me to play further. The map sounds really great, but I’m not sure about all of the medic changes + have to unlock the weapons. Maybe it’ll be good and I’m just not seeing it having not yet played it.
Cyranix
1830
Definitely with you on the weapon unlocks etc. at this point. A good implementation could change my mind, but I’m wary all the same.
I don’t want to seem like I’ll always rush to defend the design of TF2, but I just don’t see the medics as such a focal point. I will concede that they are a baseline strategy. (When the mission starts on Dustbowl stage 1, I pity the attacker who rushes out with no uber; after that initial break-out, though, then the team can start responding with different lineups.) Since opening uber gambits are overwhelmingly the norm – a baseline strategy – every player should hone skills for a baseline counter (cf. uber-disrupting methods previously mentioned).
It’s also important to keep in mind that skill does have a hand in it. Medics are laughably vulnerable when their medigun is out, so they’re depending on the skill of those around them.
Side note: Why is there no achievement for getting an enemy medic to uber you as a disguised spy? It’s an exhilarating accomplishment.
Let me get this straight, they removed grenades, detpacks, infection. Leave everything for Engineers the same. Then they give the medic ranged healing with the ability to bestow invincibility after spamming the healing for X amount of HP. Now they have added random “critical hits” and unlocks for primary weapons? DOOM3 REDUX is complete, IMO… what a joke.
Also, Goldrush sounds like a weird version of Border. Vehicles don’t exist effectively in Source (multiplayer), so have fun riding those buggy ass func_train entities all quake engine derivatives are so fond of hacking into their maps.
Erik
1832
Also someone at Valve saw the Incredibles a few times I guess.
Thrag
1833
Or a single ubered Demoman.
As far as I know it is impossible to shield a sentry from indirect fire. The enemy can always either outrange it or peek around an obstacle so that the sentry is partially visible but not active, so an undefended sentry is only a speedbump against people who know how to do this.
And even level 3 sentries only have 216 health, so a demoman can take out several with the stickygun in one uber. You can also circlestrafe a sentry if you’re within melee range, which means that a pyro can flame a sentry that’s close to an obstacle while suffering very little damage.
Most of the time when sentries are stopping an offense cold, it’s because no one on the other team knows how to deal with them.
I’ve spent most of my time in TF2 as an Engineer. And it’s not as easy as it used to be for sure. Certainly there are ways to make a sentry as “hardened” as possible, with proper positioning, constant engineer presence and a dispenser within healing/resupply range. Problem is that’s about all you can do and offensive players have now simply learned all the tactics needed to deal with even the most dug-in engineers. Typically any combination of spies, ubers and sticky bombs will do the job even against multiple positions. And sentries are increasingly targeted because they are so tactically important - in most cases a capture point will be taken just moments after the sentries protecting it have been taken out (this is particularly true on Dustbowl).
Houngan
1836
In my not-so-inconsiderable experience, ubers aren’t that big of a deal. The big factor is that they easily break a bad defense, so when you’re playing on a fair-to-middling team, and everything seems dandy, suddenly an uber pops up and wipes you out. “Unfair!” you cry, but it’s really just your fragile defense breaking all at once, rather than slowly.
Cyranix listed the steps to beat them, but here’s the biggest step of all: the defending team needs to be ACTIVE, and pushing back against the offending team. If you let them have the side tunnels where they can build three ubers at once, then you aren’t doing your job properly. You should be spamming the many choke points available, killing medics with lucky shots, and forcing early ubers. You should be ubering your own pyros and wrecking their infrastructure. You should have double and triple sentries so that the uber can’t move forward at all. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, IF YOU AREN’T AN ENGINEER AND YOU SEE STICKIES LOBBING IN, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!
That is all.
H.
I agree with Houngan. Many defenses fail because the team just digs in and tries to hold off the attack until the clock run out. It’s a cliche for a good reason - the best defense really is a good offense. Whenever I’ve played against expert teams, they pushed back at us HARD while on defense, to the point where we were constantly on the back foot and felt like we were the ones defending our own spawn points. That’s the only real way to play this game - relentless, brutal and without mercy.
Cyranix
1838
One more point on this topic: a lot of teams get half their roster wiped out when an uber comes through, which is a decisive factor if the engis’ builds also get killed. Pro tip for defending: If you can’t juggle/break the uber, get the hell away! Otherwise, you may become like so many giblets, and giblets are not great defenders.
When an uber gets popped, it’s very likely that the rest of that team will be arriving as well; your team’s odds of resisting a coordinated attack improve greatly if a few people can remove themselves from the uber’s carnage area and work on disrupting the momentum of non-invincible people.
Which is to say, if you’re defending with me on Dustbowl stage 2 and I see you unloading a pistol into an ubered enemy while carefree enemy demos lob bouncy grenades from behind the rock… I lay the blame squarely at your feet.
Houngan
1839
I’ve seen that all too often. The pyro flaming the ubered heavy is a sad sight. I think I need to stop playing on pub servers, but man I enjoy being on the dominating team.
H.
Medic Unlocks:
[i]
The Blutsaugher
For players that earn one third of the 36 new medic achievements, they will be given a new syringe gun. Called “The Blutsaugher,” this new weapon no longer has the ability to score critical hits against an opponent. Instead it will draw health from enemies each time a syringe hits. Especially useful as a weapon to retreat away from the fight while staying alive.
The Critzcrieg
Once a medic has earned two thirds of the achievements, they will be granted “The Critzcrieg.” This new medigun uses its ubercharge not for invulnerability, but to give its recipient 100% chance to fire critical ordinance. Medics and the player they are charging need to be careful though, because as much fun as it is to fire critical rockets as fast as you can, the other team will see what you’re up to and try to put a quick stop to your plan.
The Ubersaw
For the determined medic that has earned all 36 of the new achievements, they will find themselves the proud owner of “The Ubersaw,” which will take damage done in melee attacks and convert it directly to ubercharge. Four hits with this new weapon will fully charge whatever medigun the medic has equpped.
[/i]
The last one is terrifying.
They aren’t really going to launch this with just the medic unlocks are they? It seems crazy not to do every class at the same time, even if you have to wait.
