The Third Doctrinal War -- Stardock, Reiche/Ford, and Star Control

It is amazing how it does not seem to occur to Stardock how bad their position in all this looks when everywhere on the internet not under their direct control sentiment goes against them. How do they think things will work in front of a jury? They really have to be hoping to win by making the litigation cost more than P&F are willing to pay.

Aside from the one real issue in all this, whether mention of SC in P&F’s blog was fair use or not, all the other stuff where in their complaint they are literally saying things like P&F intentionally schemed to defraud Accolade, their team members, and the entire world by saying they were the creators of Star Control 2 is ridiculously salacious. Their complaint sets an amazing bar for them to try to prove. How is it going to look to a jury when to prove this claim of a conspiracy of fraud Stardock offers things like “well, they didn’t get officially filed copyright assignments until after we sued them (but they did get them)” and P&F shows that statement from Greg Johnson or has him and other team members testify that P&F having the copyrights was the understanding all along.

I guess they can just keep saying to themselves that it’s just the “haters” who only hate for unrelated reasons like political disagreements with the CEO but that’s some huge self delusion.

Why would they strive to do that, unless it was to say that doing so was a problem (thus, in a roundabout way suggesting others shouldn’t be able to do so, which might be construed as some weird form of “ownership”)?

They are saying the sum total of the things is a problem.

Consider this bad example.

Say an author wants to write a book about a teenage wizard that attends a wizard school. No problem.

At this school a friendly staff member who cares for the magical creatures befriends him. Okay.

The child is an orphan raised by non-wizard parents and doesn’t initially know about his origin. Sounds familiar but okay.

They fight evil magical creatures called “tormentors”. Go on.

A teacher in the school seems at first to hate the boy and is his nemeisis, only to learn later the teacher loved his mother and was trying to protect the boy all along. Now things are getting a little to close.

And the main evil villain who killed his parents is named “moldermort”. Now we’re probably infringing.

When the suit gets filed, they will list each of these things as elements of how in sum the work infringes. It is not a claim that J.K. Rowling has an exclusive right to make books about teenage wizards.

Dumb question:

If Paul and Fred never referred to Ghost of the Precursors as “direct sequel to Star Control” and did not use the box art of SC2 in promotion, would there be any conflict between the two parties? Any lawsuit?

you guys do a fine job of that without help.

It’s not exactly our fault that pointing out their words and actions riles people up against them ;)

Paid sockpuppet can’t add substance to the thread or merit to his arguments so Brad has to come in and puff up. Color me superfuckingsurprised.

No, Elestan. Don’t pretend you know anything about this community. I’ve known Tom for 20 years and knows that I tend to be very…assertive in debates. You showed up 3 weeks ago for this thread.

I can read your comments and general disposition and make my own conclusions just like you readily do.

You want to know what a Jury will hear?

Paul and Fred announced their game as the “true sequel” to Star Control, five days before Stardock’s big SCO announcement despite being very aware that Star Control was a trademark Stardock acquired, at some expense and spent millions of dollars investing in it. They were asked to stop doing that in the future and they refused. So Stardock filed a trademark complaint.

Rather than, you know, just agreeing to stop using Stardock’s trademark like most people would, they instead filed a countercomplaint. Now, as Elestan would point out, anyone who is going to try to file a trademark counter complaint is going to seek to cancel the trademark. But it was still, to be candid, a stupid move. People get cease and desist letters for trademark infringement frequently and 99.99% of the time the parties resolve the issue.

Paul and Fred’s attorney will need to explain why a people had to take off work to deal with this rather than simply cease using what everyone knows: Star Control is a registered trademark and has been since 1996. They knew it was Stardock’s trademark and they went forward anyway and instead of just stopping they refused.

Then, Paul and Fred’s attorneys will complain about Stardock selling the game on Steam and GOG even though Paul and Fred also admit they were the ones who set up GOG with Atari providing the trademark licenses.

The rest of it is just kvetching and fodder for Internet lawyers who have probably never been through any litigation.

Should this dispute have ever happened? No. It’s a ridiculous case. Of the various IP lawsuits I’ve found myself involved, this is the most ridiculous and most straight-forward one I’ve ever seen. This is doubly true since I, being a super-fan, wanted them to make their game.

My publicly available emails make it pretty damn clear that I was very much in favor of seeing a new game from them that picked up after SC2. I didn’t care if it was with us or not. But there was never a scenario where they could just go out and do it without some sort of agreement in place to prevent confusion.

But if you’re imagining that this will somehow end with Paul and Fred riding off into the sunset with the Star Control trademarks and Star Control: Origins being taken off the virtual shelves, you’re in for a disappointment.

Now, I’ll return you to your kvetching.

Thank you for completely reinforcing my point. Anyone who disagrees with Stardock’s actions is labeled a “hater”.

So, what prior dispute do you blame my hater bias on? I don’t frequent the P&R board. I think the only comment about you I made in years past was along the lines of “This guy is talking in public about a lawsuit against him. That’s nuts.”.

Overall that was a great tantrum though. Not sure what you think you’re gaining by it other than to offer up more transparent bluster that will turn people against you. You’ve made it clear that you won’t answer any questions so with that given position rattling off claims you refuse to defend with anything more than a link to your PR is not discussing things in good faith. It’s just pressing your PR.

I’ll admit it made me laugh a little but I can’t say it really helps the opinion I’ve and others have formed by reading your words and observing your actions on this matter.

…aaaaand now this thread is all shit up too.

Look, it’s obvious what your bias is here. And that’s fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But you used the word “hater”, not Brad. And he didn’t make any such claim.

Just waiting for someone to blame gman.

I have to follow up on this. I do not want SC:O taken off the shelves. The general sentiment is excitement for both games. You really are making huge assumptions about people who don’t agree with your actions and it is doing you a huge disservice. This notion that anyone and everyone who disagrees with your current IP grab tactics is a hater who longs for your destruction is incorrect and only does you harm since it colors your actions and attitudes and is causing you to make some really bad decisions.

There’s a lot of good stuff in this thread. Not sure why the Stardock peeps decided to wade in and derail it. I mean, it’s not like Paul or Fred have been posting here. Methinks Stardock doth protest too much. I, for one, am really hoping we get to see Ghosts of the Precursors. And I’m looking forward to Starflight 3 (because Starflight is better than Star Control anyway; ha!). I honestly no longer care about what Stardock’s doing on the game development front.

I think there a real misunderstanding of the word “bias” in the world today in general. Forming an opinion based on the evidence available is not “bias”. Yes, I have formed an opinion. Are the only “unbiased” people those who have not formed an opinion or are somehow dedicated to never consciously forming an opinion?

Yes, I used the word “hater”. Is that not an accurate description of the sentiment expressed here:

No, it absolutely would not. As defined in these contracts, Derivative Works are ports of SC1 / SC2 to other platforms. Derivative Products are non-software products like toys, board games, comics, etc.

Unfortunately it’s pretty clear that you don’t understand the case at all, and are just randomly using terms or quoting irrelevant passages from some PR document to add noise to this discussion. That’s a really shitty thing to do. (It’s not just this post either, but the others too). While it’d be great to have an informed view of Stardock’s position in this thread, you’re really not providing that.

The case law I could find isn’t clear, so it would probably have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Fred has the largest contribution to the project, so he could certainly make a claim. Serge runs the code repo and website, so he’d be another possibility. But I suspect (though I can’t speak for them) that everyone else with a plausible claim would back P&F on this if push came to shove. Their decision to open-source the game in the first place earned them a very large store of goodwill in the community that grew out of that decision. And, of course, the fact that Brad has requested an injunction that he could use to shut the project down didn’t earn him any friends there.

No, they didn’t. If the old “Star Control” trademark were invalidated, Stardock could just get a new “Star Control” trademark based purely on SC:O. This would allow them to continue to make and control that line of games going forward for as long as they wanted. The only IP they are “defending” is their highly tenuous claim on the names of the aliens. And since they had already publicly said that the aliens belonged to P&F, how can they now claim that they are obligated to defend them against P&F?

That section only applies to trademarks used “in the marketing of the Work”. Stardock’s brief tries to claim that simply having them in the game manual counts as “marketing”, but that seems like a really stretched argument to me. The manual is not the same as a sales brochure, especially since when these games were published, you couldn’t get it until you’d already bought the game. Moreover, some of these names, like “Dnyarri”, weren’t even mentioned in the manual at all.

Most companies here have some form of IP assignment clause in their employment agreements. The most aggressive ones claim every bit of IP the employee creates while an employee, no matter when, where, what, or how. I’ve turned down jobs to avoid signing such agreements before. But even a moderately reasonable company is still going to claim IP relating to the company’s business, even if done on the employee’s own time. In this case, Activision’s business is video games, and unless they are very generous on their IP, I would be extremely surprised if they allowed their employees to work on potentially competing games. Do you think Activision’s reputation suggests that they might be generous regarding IP rights?

So? Their email to Brad indicated that the GotP announcement was planned in relation to the 25th anniversary, and I see no basis to doubt its sincerity when written, though they may have moved the announcement up after their email exchange with Brad turned hostile

Nominative. They needed to identify the product containing the first part of the story that they were planning to continue in GotP, and they could not readily identify it without using its name. As I’ve said, their initial use of the box art was probably not fair use, but they quickly took that down upon Stardock’s objection.

This argument has no merit, and I wish people would stop repeating it. They announced that they were starting work, so obviously there wasn’t (and probably still isn’t) any work to show, just as there wasn’t any work to show when Stardock announced it was starting work on their new game back in 2013.

One could try to make that argument, but so far, the only evidence we’ve seen to that end is that they made their announcement some weeks before the 25th anniversary, instead of waiting for the exact date. That’s too circumstantial to convince me, unless Stardock finds more evidence to support it.

So, Brad said:

He did base his statement on Paul having copyright, but the statement has implications under trademark law as well. When he said “I don’t have the right to mess with the aliens”, that’s an affirmative statement of intent not to use them, which can serve as evidence of abandoning any trademark rights he might have had in them.

In context, it’s clear that this prohibits assignments from Paul, not to him. And importantly, Section 9.3 specifies the penalty if Paul’s IP rights turn out to be defective: He has to indemnify against any damages the Publisher might suffer. So Stardock could reasonably use Paul as a shield if Erol Otus or Greg Johnson were to sue them over any copyright issue in the old SC games. Which can no longer happen, since Erol and Greg have since assigned their copyrights to P&F.

Announcer: They didn’t.

No, but letting that opinion color everything someone says once you have formed that opinion is.

Oh, so I imagined the “community manager” barging into this thread, childishly informing us that P&F had a “cheap blog”, before mentioning he was off to play the new Stardock-made Star Control game? And then having Brad come in to provide backup, despite earlier supposedly taking the high road and bowing out of this thread? We were doing quite nicely until then.

But your argument (viz. “They didn’t”) has now convinced me of the error of my ways. Thanks.

When you are calling someone biased you are basically saying they are an unreliable source due to some reason like being a paid PR spokesman. By calling me biased you are drawing an equivalency between someone with actual pre-existing bias.

The thing about my opinion since it is based on what I have read about this case rather than some preexisting personal sentiment against one party in the dispute is that it can change when presented with new evidence. If you noticed I asked a whole bunch of questions to clarify the basis of my opinions (to which I got a lot of dodging).

Also to you general point about my use of the word hater, let me quote some more of Brad’s recent words, which were in direct reply to me:

“But if you’re imagining that this will somehow end with Paul and Fred riding off into the sunset with the Star Control trademarks and Star Control: Origins being taken off the virtual shelves, you’re in for a disappointment.”

This is the mindset he has ascribed to me personally based on the fact that I have stated disapproval of the actions he has taken in regard to this dispute. This despite having repeatedly said in this thread that I’d love to see both games.

Yep, agreed, the phrase “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.” springs to mind, replace fool with something more applicable.