Part 1.
Chilling.
It’s no Benghazi though!*
*(That’s sarcasm btw.)
People watch this program. I suppose most thing have been revealed before but he has been over such a long period and some many different places it is hard to really get a sense of the timeline. I ended up being furious at both Bush and Obama for lying to us so badly. I also feel that we were not well served by the media taking so long to get the story out in comprehensive way. On the other hand, I actually felt better in many ways realizing that there were some many public employees, who jeopardize their careers and ultimately their freedom, trying to protect the constitution. Lots of folks at the NSA, FBI, Justice Dept. deserve public recognition and thanks.
Some more Snowden info:
‘Edward Snowden: breaking law was only option, says whistleblower’:
One year after revealing himself as the source of the biggest intelligence leak in US history, Edward Snowden appeared in a long network television interview on Wednesday to describe himself as an American patriot and to make the case that his disclosures were motivated by a desire to help the country.
In his most extensive public comments to date Snowden sought to answer critics who have said his actions damaged US national security or that the threat from the secret government surveillance he revealed was overblown. Snowden was interviewed by the NBC News anchor Brian Williams, who travelled to Moscow for the meeting.
Snowden defended his decision to leak documents to the press, instead of making his complaints via internal channels, and explained why he had decided for the moment not to travel back to the United States to face criminal charges.
“If I could go anywhere in the world that place would be home,” Snowden told Williams. “I’ve from day one said that I’m doing this to serve my country … I don’t think there’s ever been any question that I’d like to go home.”
Snowden said he had not second-guessed his decision, however, to release an estimated 1.7m top secret government documents. “My priority is not about myself,” Snowden said. “It’s about making sure that these programs are reformed – and that the family that I left behind, the country that I left behind – can be helped by my actions.”
Kerry has asked him to come home to the usa also, which i certainly wouldn’t do in his shoes (gitmo/Manning etc). I’m not sure how long he can remain free to ‘champion’ his reasons, but i’d definitely have a disappearing act as plan A. Going back to the usa would just mean torture (if you care to class Mannings treatment as such) and indefinite detention with a probable eventual death sentence once they had broken you.
Well, while I agree Snowden would be daft to return voluntarily to the USA, I think you vastly overstate what would happen to him. The sheer level of publicity, and the fact that unlike Manning he was not a serving uniformed member of the armed forces when he did his thing, would insure a much different level of treatment. And there’s no way he’d even be considered a death penalty candidate, given the circumstances and subsequent fallout from his revelations (revelations that even many arch-conservatives have found disturbing). Also, the government has I think learned from the Manning case, and I would imagine is much more savvy about how to deal with these sorts of things now. But mostly, Manning was military, Snowden was a contractor. Even the Falcon and Snowmen guys (Boyce and Lee), who were much more traditionally engaged in selling secrets, just got tossed in jail.
My thinking shifted after watching the Frontline piece. I use to think that ya Snowden should be prosecuted but I’d contribute to his defense fund. But now seeing the efforts of more senior people, in the government to go through the proper channels who risk career and possible jail time trying to blow a whistle. I complete agree with Snowden the only way accomplish what he did was to go the press and as the NY Times inactions proofed you probably had to go to a foreign press, to avoid major strong arming by the executive.
I also think there is no comparison in the actionable damage that Manning and Snowden did. Anybody including the Taliban or various Jihadist group could go on to wikileaks and find out that Amir Abdul was translator/informant. I am sure this result in some deaths. There is simply no need for the public at large to know this level of detail.
While it certainly the case that Snowden revealed more about the US sources and methods than Manning. I think it is highly like that our most dangerous opponents already suspected that in fact the NSA monitored all forms of electronic communication. Look at the operational security that OBL employed starting in early the war, no cell phones, no internet, no email, communication via courier who also didn’t use the internet. I am sure that OBL didn’t do that just as precaution but rather when that started finding their top leaders dying who used cell phones/email etc. So really the only people who didn’t grasp the full scope of the NSA surveillance were the law abiding citizens of the world.
I am sure Snowden would serve jail time, short of presidential pardon, and that won’t becoming from this President.
Nor from any other. The ones who are part of the same rich, influential caste that went to the same schools – that is to say, all of them – just don’t dwell in the same world as ordinary Americans. And unfortunately the world of ordinary Americans is one in which 10% of the population makes 90% of the shrieks.
I suspect you are wrong. Historically a lot of people that were once labeled traitors and even spies have been granted Presidential pardons: Japanese-American who protest the internment camps, McCarthy era “spies”, Vietnam era draft dodgers and protestors all have been granted pardon many decades after the fact. Right now most America over 65 think Snowden should be prosecuted, middle age American are divided, and young Americans oppose his prosecution. In 30 years or so, one of those younger American will become President for either personal or political reasons, he’ll probably grant Snowden a pardon. Snowden is a young men, I am sure there will be increasing pressure for some type of deal to be reached,not in this administration nor probably in the next but eventually.
Im guessing out my ass here…
Before the end of Obama’s term Snowden will come to some agreement with justice department to serve somewhere around 5 years in a Min Security fed prison. He’ll agree to disclose how he got his info, give up all the info he took, fully cooperate, etc. I’m thinking that his lawyers and he recognize that if he is truly sincere about his desire to return to the US, the most generous terms he’s going to get will be during the lame duck period of Obama’s presidency. Certainly Hillary will not risk anything politically by being lenient during her first term and any republican that wins will lock him ADX Florence.
Good old Stephen Fry. He may bat for the other side, but he is a damn smashing chap and he has a fantastic way of chastising (and a good darn point to boot) :)
‘Stephen Fry denounces UK government for not acting on Snowden revelations’:
Stephen Fry has denounced the government’s failure to act over the mass surveillance programme revealed by the whistleblower Edward Snowden, labelling its behaviour as “squalid and rancid”.
Opening a day of debate to galvanise action against industrial-scale spying by the British and US intelligence agencies, Fry said that exploiting the fear of terrorism is a “duplicitous and deeply wrong means of excusing something as base as spying on the citizens of your own country”.
So no surprise then. I mean, look at Eric Pickles - two minutes of research will show exactly how rancid his flab is.
On a more serious note…no, absolutely no surprise from the coalition. None at all. The only “privacy” move they’ve really made was shutting down the desperately, desperately needed child protection database and throwing departments back onto exchanging letters using paper.
This is bound to get the frothing right mad and pitch-forky, but this might be the first endorsement for Snowdens actions from one of the American political elite:
‘Edward Snowden’s NSA leaks ‘an important service’, says Al Gore’:
Edward Snowden has secured his highest endorsement yet in the US when former vice-president Al Gore described the leaking of top secret intelligence documents as “an important service”.
Asked if he regarded Snowden as a traitor or whistleblower, Gore veered away from the “traitor” label. He refused to go as far as labelling him a whistleblower but signalled he viewed him as being closer to that category than a traitor, saying: “What he revealed in the course of violating important laws included violations of the US constitution that were way more serious than the crimes he committed.”
Snowden, the former CIA and National Security Agency computer specialist, leaked US and British documents to the Guardian and Washington Post in June last year, starting a worldwide debate on the balance between surveillance and privacy. His revelations have led to proposed changes in legislation in the US and a backlash against government surveillance by major telecoms and internet companies.
But he remains a polarising figure in the US. An NBC poll a fortnight ago showed 24% backing him and 34% disagreeing with his actions, with 40% having no opinion. Among the younger generation there was more support, with 32% backing him and only 20% opposed, with 47% having no opinion. Some members of Congress have welcomed the revelations but refuse to go as far as supporting Snowden, who is wanted by the US and has sought asylum in Russia.
Gore, interviewed at the Southland technology conference in Nashville, Tennessee, was asked if he viewed him as a whistleblower or a traitor. "I hear this question all the time. I’m like most people: I don’t put him in either one of those categories. But I’ll be candid and give you want you want. If you set up a spectrum. "
The interviewer interrupted: “How would you define it?”
Gore replied: "I would push it more away from the traitor side. And I will tell you why. He clearly violated the law so you can’t say OK, what he did is all right. It’s not. But what he revealed in the course of violating important laws included violations of the US constitution that were way more serious than the crimes he committed.
“In the course of violating important law, he also provided an important service. OK. Because we did need to know how far this has gone.”
And rightly the UK comes in for criticism over it’s recent push to subvert the law on mass surveillance:
‘Edward Snowden condemns Britain’s emergency surveillance bill’:
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian in Moscow, Snowden said it was very unusual for a public body to pass an emergency law such as this in circumstances other than a time of total war. “I mean we don’t have bombs falling. We don’t have U-boats in the harbour.”
Suddenly it is a priority, he said, after the government had ignored it for an entire year. “It defies belief.”
He found the urgency with which the British government was moving extraordinary and said it mirrored a similar move in the US in 2007 when the Bush administration was forced to introduce legislation, the Protect America Act, citing the same concerns about terrorist threats and the NSA losing cooperation from telecom and internet companies.
“I mean the NSA could have written this draft,” he said. “They passed it under the same sort of emergency justification. They said we would be at risk. They said companies will no longer cooperate with us. We’re losing valuable intelligence that puts the nation at risk.”
His comments chime with British civil liberties groups who, having had time to read the small print, are growing increasingly sceptical about government claims last week that the bill is a stop-gap that will not increase the powers of the surveillance agencies.
Subvert? No subversion involved. It’s a very clear, cross-party (yes, Labour are for it) push for mass surveillance.
Hopefully the ECHR and EU will defend us against it. Again.
The law had already been passed in europe, (and that applies to us also), so to get around that new legal requirement, the government pushed through emergency legislation citing extreme reasons why they needed to (the kind of stuff you only see during a serious crisis like a declaration of actual war etc). The ‘subversion’ was about the recently passed law we had to abide by as well, but worked out a way not to. But yes you are right that maybe the euro-zone will come to our rescue again. Shame it has to!
What law?
I understand that problem they’ve had is a ECJ court ruling, which has cut the legs out from under data retention.
Well done, that one. Data retention was no longer on the table, so they pushed through some emergency stuff to get around it, thus subverting that ruling.
So not a law, right. And no, there’s no “subversion” - they’re creating a law which they believe complies with the court ruling. I believe they’re wrong, but this is not “subversion”.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Subvert
I’ll leave it at that Starlight. This spiral of disinformation has bored me now.
Stop doing it then!
Computers have the potential for freedom, and also the potential to allow scary 1984-ish type of societies.
The fight for freedom never ends. While some people where destroying the Berlin Wall, the Chinese where building the Internet Firewall.
The darkness is already over USA, like a gigantic black cloud that its tryiing to block the sun and replace it by one of their own. The current challenge is bigger and more deadly than the one of the MacArthur era.
Fight now, while you can still fight. Before you are to scared to fight. Or you will lose the right to fight.
This MUST stop.