The Trump Administration and Syria

Well, apparently big explosions helped make Mythbusters popular.

It also turned them into a one trick pony…that performed that trick at every opportunity, even those that did not particularly call for it.

I’m not sure what your point us, other than perhaps misplaced nationalism. Maybe read up on the firebombing of Japan.

We were no fucking saints. At all.

McNamara would know better than most, he calls himself a war criminal for it.

No nationalism, misplaced or otherwise. Certainly no slight on the Brits was intended, given the complexity of the situation. I wasn’t passing moral judgment, either; the entire strategic bombing campaign in WWII, from my point of view, remains morally ambiguous at best, but that wasn’t my point. I was simply noting that there are historical frameworks for viewing American actions like drone strikes. It’s not that Americans are any more morally enlightened than anyone else. It’s that for better or for worse we generally create scenarios where what we’re doing is technically within accepted norms of warfare.

The results are never what we want, though. In this sense, perhaps the RAF was actually more honest, in that they pretty much got what they aimed for, while the USAAF struggled to match results with intent.

Japan…agreed, that is another kettle of fish. Much more visceral hate informing the American action there. Yes, it was framed in the context of hitting industry, and the particulars of Japanese industrial development and urban construction meant that bombing became more widespread, but at the root of it was revenge for Pearl Harbor. Though we do have to remember I suppose that for both the UK and the USA, for a long time in the war there was jack all they could do except lob bombers at the bad guys. It would have been impossible for Churchill or Roosevelt to not do anything at all.

The misinformation about the MOAB is really troubling. While the right wing fawning over explosion footage is gross, a lot of the left wing cabal’s incorrect data about the cost of the bomb is troubling as well. The MOAB isn’t really that exciting of an ordinance, and it likely cost under half a million for the cost of the bomb, and the cost of the planes and airforce personnel to deploy it.

It is just a big old regular bomb.

I watched a documentary piece about how they were designed and constructed, and they sound fascinating. It is just shoved out of the back of a cargo plane, and the little wings flip out when it hits the air resistance. Very simple and cheap technology. While I certainly am against a lot of the jingoism surrounding attacks like this one, it seemed to be effective in its use far away from civilians, and targeted at a known bunker.

Cheaper than those tomahawks.

What’s the idea, drop enough ordnance on a tunnel/bunker complex and you just collapse the whole structure, burying everyone inside?

The compression wave from that bomb will basically liquefy everyone in the cave complex.

Do you have any data on that? With WW2 and Vietnam, and the heavy use of tunnels being so effective I just don’t see it. Earth is a wonderful dampening environment

Interesting perspective. From the outside it doesn’t look like there’s anything uniquely American about the handling of the drone campaign - it’s just only the US have rolled out the tech that widely.

In terms of civilian casualty minimisation drones would seem to have a lot of potential, because there is much more opportunity to survey the target before firing on it and less desire not to “waste” a sortie. Of course it all depends on the right RoE being in place.

Ya, that’s why this bomb is so big.

They are however, considerably more destructive when used against field fortifications such as foxholes, tunnels, bunkers, and caves—partly due to the sustained blast wave, and partly by consuming the available oxygen inside. Thermobaric weapons have the longest sustained blast wave and most destructive force of any known non-nuclear explosive.

I guess it also consumes all the air in the complex, so folks inside die from asphyxiation if they aren’t killed by the blast wave.

Thanks! I need to re calibrate my internal knowledge meter on this. I just got finished watching hacksaw ridge and I guess these new bombs are a lot better than ship cannons.

This sounds about right: https://worldtruth.tv/truth-bomb-dropped-live-on-bbc-by-british-ambassador-goes-viral/

Pardon the ridiculous headline, it’s a BBC video. But yeah, Assad had no reason to carry out the strike, had no military advantage to do so; considering Trumps’ strike had no military advantage either, it’s all just political bullshit.

Lethal bullshit, though. Whatever qualms I may have about our bombs and drones, they pretty much pale in comparison to using sarin as a way of making a statement.

But I freely admit that’s my own perspective, which is unabashedly Western, privileged, and steeped in a philosophical background that is highly particular to my place and time. I also realize that there are other perspectives, many of which I reject utterly, but which are nevertheless entirely rational considering their underlying assumptions. And many of those underlying assumptions are quite different from those we are familiar with in our cultural landscape.

The MOAB uses explosives H-6 and is not a thermobaric fuel-air bomb. It’s not a shaped charge either, so most likely the blast follows the path of least resistance and goes through the air and isn’t particular effective against tunnels. It’s essentially a modern version of a daisy cutter bomb, which was primarily used to clear out the area of trees for helicopter landings. It’s a weapon without a real niche or strongpoint. I bet that’s why they only built 15 of them.

Huh… my mistake then.
Then what WOULD the effect be on a cave complex?

Yeah, FOAB is the thermobaric one. But the initial hammer blow of the explosion would hit the ground pretty hard, I should think, even if the force of the blast was subsequently channeled through the air. I wouldn’t be surprised if shallow tunnels were collapsed as a result or if any open passages (or those with reasonably thin doorways) in the center of the explosion had lethal blasts communicated down them for quite a long distance.

Well, if they introduce a small delay in the trigger, it would be very effective against tunnels - its weight would be enough to penetrate soil several meters, and exploding below would mean most of the blast would propagate within the tunnels, not above them. But I’m not sure if there was such a modification in this case.

Nah, I don’t think that would work.
THe MOAB’s skin is very thin. It has no penetration capabilities at all. You wouldn’t actually want it to impact on the surface, because you’d run the risk of damaging the charge and maybe reducing the yield. I suppose it could actually cause it to not detonate at all, although I would suspect that the kinetic force of the impact may be enough to cause the detonation on its own… still pretty sure you wouldn’t want to have that bomb impact anything prior to detonation.

A missed opportunity, it seems. Oh well.