The US Military Catch-All Thread


#202

Your cherry picking is amazing. Putin would be proud.

Except it isn’t. You’re parroting Trump.

If you don’t want people to call you stupid, don’t say stupid things. That Vietnam managed to repel the Chinese doesn’t mean we should let every nation fend for themselves.

And? We’ve been doing pretty well with economic pressure. Of course we’re not going to invade a nuclear nation. That would be beyond idiotic. It’s the same reason we didn’t invade the USSR to free them.

I mean what even is your ideology on these things?


#204

@ShivaX, I wish you’d quit making personal attacks.

You can’t very well argue that it’s important for the US to be the global cops while at the same time offering up countless examples of where the US failed to be the global cops. I mean, you’re offering an example from 70 years ago, one we didn’t stop anyway.

What are the good examples of the US being the global cops?


#205

I wish you would argue in good faith and not use stupid bullshit, but here we are.

Also nice try on changing the subject when caught in said bullshit.

I mean you can ask the South Koreans about it. You know since there is a fucking South Korea.
Maybe you can swing by and talk to the Kuwaitis about not being part of Iraq afterwards.


#206

If a heavy weight can’t be lifted, should one bother lifting anything at all?


#207

We have to sign treaties and uphold them, submit to world court and other international directives to which we are signatory, and conform to international conventions. This is very simple. We’ve broken our national word countless times from the very first treaties we signed with native american nations up to the current day. More than any other civilized nation we are lawless and wanton.

First we must set up a system of law with other nations that has some meaning and won’t just be vetoed whenever we see fit. Then we and other signatory nations enforce it. It’s that simple. But of course that’s politically impossible due to the century-long campaign of xenophobia supporting “sovereignty” in this country.

So until then, we should uphold our treaty obligations, only intervene in defense of democracies when requested to do so by nations under attack, and we should withdraw trade and other forms of support from monstrous aggressors like Saudi Arabia. That’s all. Unless I’ve overlooked something, not one of our myriad military inventions in the last 50 years has been in defense of democracy or in support of a treaty obligation.


#208

You’re the guy who complains about moving goalposts, right?

The reason it matters is that they are still murdering people in Tibet. It’s not like they did something in 1950, and then stopped. They are brutally oppressing Tibet today, right now. Hell, they brutally oppress their own people. That’s who China is.

Expansion of that is not a good thing.

However, all this aside, if you truly believe that there is a moral and ethical equivalence between the US and countries like Russia and China, then i do not think we will see eye to eye on this.

Although i bet you wouldn’t be willing to give up your US citizenship and then go to those countries and openly criticize their governments, and i think that says something.


#209

It’s a fair question. If every time you try to lift it, you kill a bystander, should you reconsider?


#210

Will lifting the weight save more than are killed? If so, it’s a serious moral dilemma.


#211

Oh, and that heavy weight is also a tank that’s mowing down civilians with machine gun fire, but we’re going to pretend it isn’t.

Because if we hurt someone trying to stop it, we’d be as bad as the guy shooting everyone, guys.


#212

No you are the one doing the cherry picking. For every child the coalition force has killed there are literally a thousand and more likely 10,000 kids that are in school. Nor should we forget that Taliban loved killing so much they turned soccer stadiums in to stoning stadiums. By every objective measurement, child mortality, literacy, life expectancy, per capita GDP, Afghanistan is a better place than it was under the Taliban.

You along with most American seem to think that if bad shit happens in other countries, and America not there is it ok.

I think if we kill 100,000 people in airstrikes but save 100,001 via better sanitation. That’s still a net gain of 1 life and that’s good thing. That is extreme but surely there is a ratio of dead Americans and dead children vs the good things is worthwhile.


#213

The irony of someone with a fucking sickle on their picture lecturing us about the evils of America is kind of amazing.


#214

Yes, what you’re saying is that being the world’s cop means we don’t stop this shit from happening, because we don’t get to play cop with Russia and China. We only get to play cop with weak countries.

What I truly believe is that you’ve done a lot of shouting, but you haven’t yet answered the question I actually asked, the one that prompted all the shouting.

How do the motivations of China and Russia differ from ours? From here they look more or less identical. They want to be more powerful, to dominate their neighbors, to act with impunity, to become and remain hegemons.


#215

The US and Vietnam were both signature to SEATO, which had mutual defense clasue the same as NATO. So were acting under treaty obligation. Likewise the first gulf war was in accordance with numerous UN Security council resolutions.


#216

It’s a game icon. Shenandoah Games, Drive on Moscow.


#217

Please guys. We’re all on the same team.


#218

Hmm, I think you are missing my point, which may be my fault. You equate letting the world run itself with running things the way you would like it to run. That’s not what I’m saying. The world is perfectly capable of running itself. It always has. It’s just that the result is rarely all of one thing, but a bunch of different things at the same time, many of which are not terribly satisfactory. But you can never, ever, get it all the way you want it, and attempts to shape it that way are doomed to miserable and bloody failure. All you can do is behave, as a nation, best way you can, and hope others go with your example If you don’t set a good example, it won’t work, and even if you do, it may not work, but you cannot coerce goodness.

No empire has ever made the world work the way the empire wanted. Only for brief periods of time at great expense have they been able to get even a modicum of compliance with whatever imperial mindset was in vogue. It’s a losing game.

The world won’t ever run the way we want it to, so instead of trying to force it we should just behave ourselves in a good fashion, defend ourselves when necessary, and trust that eventually everyone sort of gets the government they deserve.


#219

What if, instead, it’s a trolley. It’s out of control, heading for a group of people who don’t see it coming. But there is a fat man near the tracks, and if you could push him onto the track, his weight might stop the trolley…


#220

“Hey, I’m shifting the goal posts, why aren’t you playing along?”

Yeah, good luck with that.

They’ll get the government that is imposed on them by those with more power than them.

We tried that idea. Then we ended up with a World War we had to get involved in anyway.


#221

I take your point, but I don’t think you can provide any reasonable support for those numbers. That aside, in the end, we’ll leave Afghanistan to the Taliban, won’t we?


#222

But no, because the US does in fact serve as a check on those countries. Simply because we have not attacked China over their actions in Tibet is not too say that China does not decide their actions based upon the existence of the US military. I guarantee you that the US is way the hell up there on the list of considerations when gonna does anything.

China and Russia want to expand their territory, and brutally oppress people. People living under those regimes have it worse than people in America. I would not want to love in those conditions. Lots of Chinese and Russians feel the same way, and are systematically crushed by their government.

Again, if you can’t see the difference, i do not believe that i can convince you otherwise. I’m not particularly interested in trying.