I always thought that the issue was detecting the targets at that range. I guess it’s possible even from a surface vessel if they are actively emitting? Obviously the people who know are very quiet about the details.

And if you have air to detect them, then that air can fire an anti ship missile, so it’s not so helpful to have long range anti-ship on surface vessels.

Well, a ship has a lot more missiles than an aircraft.

And it’s kind of a mixed bag because of it. The same missile launched from the air both gets you free starting altitude(and therefore extra range) as well as a mobile platform that can get closer to the target before firing(extending engagement range from your ships). But yeah, anti-ship missiles are big(limiting how many can fit on a carrier-launched aircraft) so you’d need a lot of planes to effectively take on an enemy fleet.

Here’s a picture from Wikipedia of an LRASM mounted on an F-18.

Detecting, identifying, and targeting ships at range is not easy. Even with all the fancy sensors the challenges of time, space, and energy are significant. Active emitters on ships are limited to the horizon, so even if relatively high up on the mast or superstructure there is a limit to line of sight that will be nowhere near the range of long-range missiles. And, well, EMCON is the norm, and no one likes to turn on those big ass radars unless they absolutely have to. Why? Because if your radar can look out say sixty miles, someone’s ELINT platforms can see you from several hundred miles away.

Over the Horizon (OTH) targeting by helo or I suppose drones or other piloted aircraft is possible, but risky, and can be kind of visible too. You also have to maintain the spotting during the duration of the missile flight, which can get dicey.

Space-based systems may or may not be capable of locating, identifying, and effectively targeting surface assets. Generally, unless things have changed a lot (and they well may have) the time lag in bouncing actual targeting links up and down with space platforms can introduce problems, not to mention the need to have platforms in the right place at the right time at the right orientation and all that.

It seems that long-range targeting is a mix of GPS or inertial guidance to an area where you think the bad guys are, followed by onboard terminal guidance with the missile’s active sensors. Short range missiles or even medium range missiles can minimize the gap between initial guidance and terminal guidance better because the distance they travel allows for less wiggle room (and because the initial targeting solution is likely to be more refined).

It’s all trade offs.

“What if we made the guns bigger?”

“That’s a lot of weight. She’ll be slower.”

“Well, couldn’t we reduce the armor plating?”

So it has been forever.

Yep. Good, fast, or cheap; pick any two, etc.

Higly mobile (IE light) with a big punch has been shown right time after time. Centurion and leopard 1 all the way up to two gopniks on a motorbike with a javelin.

Speed, armor, armament?

M10/M36 beg to differ.

As soon as well rounded MBTs became a thing after ww2, all mobile AT (ie TDs) disappeared overnight.

Even the mobile and light Leopard 1 was replaced by the much better armoured Leo2.

I do think that modern AT missiles have changed the landscape though.
As you say, 2 guys on a motorcycle as a mobile tank hunter team is a thing.

If everything is light and highly mobile, nothing needs a big punch, because all the targets are light and highly mobile.

And, as I recall, they were scrambling to wrap all those light, highly mobile Hummers deployed to Iraq in armor for some reason.

Everyone is correct!

Pretty much since humans have been organizing themselves for maximum efficiency in the most wasteful, unproductive, and destructive activity we can think of–war–the battlefield has been dominated by the idea of combined arms. The concept has evolved and militaries have refined it a lot over time, but the essential idea remains. You need a multi-spectrum approach to warfare if you hope to succeed. Even something as simple as you guys stand their and beat on them while you guys go over there and throw rocks is a primitive yet effective form of combined arms.

Light, mobile forces are essential for some things, and not so useful for others. Ditto heavy forces. Hammers and anvils, holders and flankers, line of battle and skirmishers, there’s a place in the House of Mars for everyone!

In all seriousness, though, the US has wrestled with the problem of force balance for a long time. In the very specific circumstances of Central Europe during the Cold War, the focus was rightly on heavy forces. Light forces, except for screening, recon, and rear area security, seemed unsuitable when facing a potential armor-heavy Soviet juggernaut.

The end of the Cold War left us with a force structure built for a war that never happened. When we needed to deploy forces to the Gulf in Desert Shield/Storm, it took a long time and a lot of logistical work to shift those heavy forces to the desert. In very few scenarios though would we have that time, as well as a friendly staging area like Saudi Arabia.

Until 9/11, there didn’t seem to be much consistency in our planning, or any clear direction, but the deployment of forces to Afghanistan reignited the calls for lighter, more mobile, easily deployable forces. After all, fighting Al Qaeda or the Taliban hardly required the 1st Armored Division, but it did require a lot of grunts with rifles, mortars, all-terrain vehicles, and helos. But then in 2003 we invaded Iraq, where it seemed heavy forces might be useful again. After we toppled Saddam, though, once again it was a sort of low-intensity conflict with a lot of fighting in built-up areas. More infantry and light force focused stuff.

So in the early 2000s the debates kept going, with a lot of development of new gear focused on things like mine-proofing, rapidly deployable forces, lighter formations that could be sent hither and yon quickly. In the back of many minds though was the persistent thought that if we did have to fight someone with a heavy force structure, we couldn’t let our own atrophy too much. A lot of factors make focusing on lighter forces easier though. More contractors can participate than when you are talking about tanks, or self-propelled howitzers. Prototyping and procurement in general is often easier. The stuff is usually cheaper, though not always. And most of all, until the Ukraine invasion really no one actually expected a large-scale land war using heavy armor in quantity.

So, I imagine the E ring conversations about now are pretty interesting concerning force development. On the one hand, drones, impromptu light strike teams, special forces, and artillery seem to be very effective against Russian tanks. OTOH, tanks on both sides also seem to be very useful for a host of missions, and it is quite possible that the success of light forces is made possible by the threat of Ukraine’s own heavy armor formations; this stuff isn’t happening in a vacuum.

They were lackluster in World of Tanks. :)

One problem with the admittedly not trying to be realistic combat modeling in WoT was that it created situations that were comparatively rare in the WWII era. Pure tank on tank (or other tank-like AFVs) action was far less common than mixed encounters with all arms. And no, artillery in WoT does not count, as it in all of its forms has been bizarre and hardly related to reality.

Tank Destroyers, despite having their own trees, ended up being treated the same as tanks, as the game doesn’t give you anything but meeting engagements basically and the doctrinal role of TDs can’t really be executed. Making a thin-skinned open-top TD fight in the arena with full-on battle tanks, in the same tactical context, is going to be bad for the TDs. The only TDs that really thrive (at least when I was playing) were the relatively heavily armored (and often hypothetical) stuff with big ass guns.

The M18 kicked ass in World of Tanks. I’m not great at action games, but my one moment of glory was killing 10 tanks in a single match with an M18, most of them taken out when I was the only vehicle on my side left. This was before they had awards for killing that many tanks, so unfortunately it only earned a 6+ kill battle award. Here’s my record with Hellcats showing four battles in which I killed over 6 enemies.

I wasn’t a great player with barely over a 50% average win rate, but that Hellcat tank destroyer was amazing. Don’t be dissing American Tank Destroyers in World of Tanks!

Yeah, on tier (six, I think?) on some maps it can be hella fun. Sadly, the real world doesn’t order things by tiers, nor did M18s fire accurately on the move in WWII :). I did love it in the game though.

My best k/d was in the Pz II. I loved that sucker.

Apparently the M18 was the most successful tank/tank destroyer in WWII though? It’s Wikipedia entry lists it that way… 2.3 to 1 ratio of kills to destruction.

The Hellcat was the most effective U.S. tank destroyer of World War II. It had a higher kill to loss ratio than any other tank or tank destroyer fielded by U.S. forces in World War II.[7][8] Kills claimed were 526 in total: 498 in Europe, 17 in Italy, and 11 in the Pacific. The kills-to-losses ratio for Europe was 2.3 to 1, and the overall kill to loss ratio was 2.4 to 1.[9] M18s were “…not primarily used for tank fighting, but were committed more often to improvised roles, usually direct fire support for infantry.”[10]

This article says they sucked as a headline and then goes on to note they kicked ass on the battlefield.

In September 1944, the tank-destroyer units encountered a number of Panzer battle groups in combat. At the end of these encounters, the M18s were credited with destroying 39 Panzers, while losing only four M18s.

A group of 15 Panzer Mark IVs with grenadiers riding on them penetrated the defenses of the 327th Glider Infantry, but was it wiped out by the M18s and paratrooper bazooka fire. Intense fighting around Bastogne on Christmas included a number of encounters with German Panzer tanks. By the end of the day, the M18 battalion had knocked out 27 panzers at the cost of just six M18s.

I’m not sure you can attribute all that to the crews…

Italy is not in Europe?

Or are 17 of those destroyed part of the 526 in Europe?

Let’s eat, grandma ==> Let’s eat grandma! Punctuation matters!!!

Haha… you should edit it!

I’ve thought that about WIkipedia before, but tbh I am a bit too lazy:(.