The US Military Catch-All Thread

I don’t think that’s it, at least not in this case. I chose West for a reason: He is an avowed war criminal who was protected by the military, allowed to retire etc rather than being court-martialed. Rather than show any remorse, he bragged about what he did and parlayed that into election to Congress. People voted for him in large numbers because he was a war criminal.

Yes, I certainly understand that. But I frankly can’t understand the mentality that leads to us repeatedly and deliberately killing entire extended families — mothers, wives, children — with flying killer robots, on the grounds that it is some kind of justified collateral damage. Where are the soldiers who say ‘no’? Why don’t we know about them, if they exist?

Thank you for your service and thank you for participating in the discussion in this thread. That can’t be an easy thing to jump into. It’s pretty rhetorically hot in here.

I’m on my phone on my gym break so I can’t get as in depth on that as I’d like but I actually think that’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about. West was convicted of his offenses and given an Article 15 effectively ending his career. Now you could make an argument that he was not punished enough or that the military justice system cannot be trusted because of this but I don’t think you can say he wasn’t prosecuted for his crimes.
I think the better point is the prevalent attitude that because this is war his actions cannot be criticized. At least not politically.

It was a sarcastic answer based on the Eddie Gallagher case. Obviously I don’t think everyone signs up for that reason. But fuck if the military doesn’t defend its own, just like the blue shield.

I unequivocally agree. It is nearly impossible to have a much overdue national reckoning about the size, scope, and purpose of our military these days. Because any insinuation of ‘maybe endless war is bad, we spend too much on our military, and we are engaging in conflict for profiteering rather than need’ is met with WHY DO YOU HATE OUR TROOPS.

Like, no, it’s not hating the troops to suggest we shouldn’t be sending them to places where many will never return from or be permanently damaged from. All so some defense contractors can have a dick waving contest and make some money. In fact it’s quite the opposite, thinking about the ramifications and implications of use of force is far more likely to be good for troops in the long run, as less would die or suffer permanent physical or emotional damage for pointless reasons.

Because let’s face it, the war on terror became what it was for reasons of it would enrich a lot of well connected people.

And part of the reason you see such distrust aimed at the military is because you know the top brass is in bed with the same forces that lead to endless war. The general who retires to join the cushy contracting company job for the military contractor who just so happened to benefit from the decisions he made. The petty tyrant types who are trying to raise their own personal power and divert ever more of the national coffer into their pet projects. The perhaps true believer in might makes right, and wants to engage in gunboat diplomacy at every turn.

Not every general in the Pentagon fits those types perhaps, but we all know for damn sure that some do. That those people are making decisions that are not necessarily in the interest of the country but their personal fiefdom. That they push for war when ever they can. There is a rot at the top, and how pervasive it is I can not say. But people sense this. And though it would be unfair to blame your average enlisted for this, they aren’t calling the shots, the nebulous concept of ‘the Army’ does deserve blame. And so the Army gets the blame. But perhaps not with the focus or nuance it deserves.

Thank you. Trust me I’m not looking for platitudes or praise nor am I trying to “prove any points”. I strongly believe it is critical for those of us in the military to understand the opinions and perspectives of the vast majority of those in the country we serve.

And I’m pretty sure the rhetoric is pretty hot in every corner of the internet. Comes with the territory:)

That’s actually tangential to my point: A majority of voters approved of his war crimes enough to elect him to Congress. A lot of Americans like war crimes if we are the ones doing them, and if we are doing them to the ‘right people’.

Fair enough but I also think you’re wrong on the whole. Are there plenty of people in the military who will defend any behavior just because? Maybe? Probably? From my 15 years of experience I can say that the vast majority of those I’ve known and interacted with will not.

Saying a non-trivial amount of US military enlistees joined to commit war crimes is some next-level hot take insulting bullshit.

No I’m pretty sure that was mostly just a bad joke.

Well I’ll have to disagree with you again. There’s a pretty robust definition of what constitutes a war crime and while I’m not a lawyer the military justice system found that he did not in fact commit war crimes. So again you may think that funding to be incorrect but that’s what happened. So does the general public really not care if troops commit war crimes? Or do they not have enough exposure to the system? I think the military justice system is too self-contained which makes it even more difficult to have honest analysis of the system.

You’ll forgive me if I don’t take their word for it, won’t you? I’m familiar with the standard, and there isn’t any doubt about what he did, and it was a war crime per the standard. And if we can’t at least agree on that — that threatening a prisoner with summary execution, and simulating the killing, are war crimes — then I guess we won’t agree on much else.

I’m not trying to convince you what he did wasn’t a war crime. I’m saying he was punished for his crime per the justice system in place.

You’re saying people voted for him because of or at least in spite of his crimes. I’m simply saying the more likely explanation is that most of America simply isn’t equipped to discuss or process something like what he did in Iraq or have a reasonable discussion about whether his punishment was just. And that’s partly their fault and partly the military’s.

I’d think it’s more likely the voters just cared more strongly about other issues.

I’m saying that because it is true. There are quotes from people in print, on video, etc, voicing their strong approval of what he did. He ran on what he did, twice. Each time something on the order of half the electorate voted for him. They weren’t ignorant of the issue.

As for this:

I’m really not sure why you offer it. If I were to say, e.g. that OJ Simpson was not a murderer because the justice system in place said he wasn’t, would you take the suggestion seriously, or would you point out that it was a failure of the justice system that he was acquitted?

Probably true. And I’d agree, the current state of the country and specifically the way government is perceived is part of this. I’d also note though that pretty much all of this situation–the distrust of government and the ineffectiveness of government–is the fault of the right wing of the Republican party which has been beating the anti-government drum for literally decades, as described above by others. Historically, there has always been some healthy distrust of government–my father used to say “no man’s life, liberty, or property is safe when the legislature is in session”–but much of it was balanced by at least a modicum of understanding that, at its core, government in our country is in fact us. Since at least Newt Gingrich’s time in Congress, that basic belief has been deliberately undercut to make government paradoxically both an evil to be opposed/avoided/thwarted, and (when in the hands of the rightists) an unquestionable and infallible agent of destiny rooting out unspecified but very much to be feared domestic “threats” to God, guns, white people.

There is also the matter you alluded to I think about what sorts of missions our military gets tasked with. Many evils stem from misusing tools. If no one can or will participate in actual discussion and critique of policy and goals, though, such misuse is inevitable. The USA ended up letting Cold War fears and domestic politics short-circuit vigorous debate about both goals and means in South-East Asia, and we paid a heavy price for that. Unfortunately, the modern (post Desert Storm) way of doing things seems to have doubled down on that pattern; we haven’t had a serious and informed discussion nationally about what we should be using our military for in decades.

I often wonder whether, politically necessary as it was, the ending of the draft really helped anything. Once you move away from a system of universal service (and yes, admittedly the SSS at the time of Vietnam was a disaster in many ways) you seem to lose that connection between the people and the military, along with any wide-spread basic knowledge about the services and what they entail. Of course, to @Timex’s point upthread, even with a conscript military during Vietnam there was this gap that emerged, though I think this points to a similar problem we have today. When the military services are being used for purposes that the majority of people do not understand, which the majority of political leaders do not really understand either, and where whatever goals are articulated never seem to materialize and warfare becomes a sort of ongoing self-referential and self-sustaining cycle, without any denouement or results, and finally where the only actual results seem to be broken people on all sides, it’s understandable why people react the way they do.

Some of those reactions take the form of attacks on the military per se, which often can go off the rails and target the wrong people, often ignoring our own culpability as voters and too often striping the bulk of dedicated servicepeople with a too-broad negative brush. But other reactions go to the other extreme, and double down on the ineffective and brutal cycle of violence so that warfare itself become the goal, and violence becomes the end, not the means to an end; when there is no discernible or practical end (and no, “ending terror” is not a viable or even a comprehensible goal), but for ideological or psychological reasons you can’t bring yourself to criticize or even question the missions the military is given, you end up having to endorse everything because you’ve convinced yourself that to do otherwise is wrong. In effect, many Americans I think have boxed themselves into a corner–they can’t get back to what used to be a sacred cornerstone of citizenship, which was informed, rational interrogation of American policies and actions, where it was possible to support the country while vigorously debating or even opposing its actions (cf. the opposition to the Mexican War, for instance, or pretty much most foreign policy debates up until Wilson’s misplaced idealism in WWI started to change things).

tl;dr, yes, there is a dearth of appreciation about citizenship, and most of this comes from the near total absence of any sense of shared or common aspects to that citizenship. Where once we were able to embrace the idea that solid American citizens could disagree over things as vital as war and peace and still be respected members of the same polity, today it seems that adherence to very specific aspects of policy decisions or actions (including the use of the military) have become binary indicators of “true” Americanism, and this is very very dangerous IMO. And yes, it isn’t limited to one “side” or the other, but I personally think this is not something that is balanced equally because IMO at least the right bears the lion share of the blame (though the rest of the country is hardly blameless).

I think we might be veering into P & R territory here so i don’t really want to address the “who’s to blame right or left” discussion but i do agree with this right here:

I also think the fact that less than 1% of the population is currently serving in the military and less than 10% (roughly) of all living Americans have ever served makes it very difficult for any common understanding between those two groups. Whenever I would come back from a deployment, it was a real struggle to relate to even my own family for quite some time because there’s just no shared experience to base a common understanding on. And they’re as close to being in the military as you can get without signing up so i’d imagine that there’s even more distance between your average member of the military and your average american citizen. That’s one of the reasons i’m always interested in where people’s opinions are formed.

Since this is a gaming and entertainment site though i will say that i’ve been greatly encouraged by how much thoughtful, honest analysis and criticism is out there these days in books, blogs, documentaries, etc. I’m still waiting for video games to chime in with something more meaningful than CoD.

This is the correct place for that.

Spec Ops: The Line probably comes closest? But the genre is about power fantasy fulfillment for the most part, so companies don’t want to remind people about what things are really like.

Yeah I’ve heard that about Spec Ops but never played it. You’re right though an introspective game about war or military service isn’t getting made by the big studios. I still have hope that an indie studio will try.

Yeah, AAA is never going to do it.